Powered Sport Flying Magazine

[GyroRon]

The PRA is not needed in today's world.

The struggle is trying to think of and implement a purpose for the PRA in today's world.

Imagine there was no internet, no online forums, no text messaging, no facebook... THEN there would be a reason and purpose for a PRA, to publish information and news and be a way for us to be under one roof so to speak. That was what the PRA was back in the day.

For some reason we continue to get people to volunteer their time and efforts to TRY to keep some kind of flame burning but the writing has been on the wall for years now... It isn't needed.

I've often thought about, what if dues were dirt cheap... Would everyone that has any involvement with gyroplanes send in dues and maintain membership, Would that keep PRA alive? And even then I have to ask myself what would be the motivation for me to send in even $10-20 a year to be a member?

 

[Doug Riley]

Right, Ron, the original reasons don't exist anymore.

An organization that runs rotorcraft flyins each year (Bensen days, Mentone, or both) makes sense to me. Those events are fun, educational, and well worth the price of admission, IMHO.

Organized representation before the FAA seems uber-valuable as well.

A footnote to that, though: At one time, influential people in the PRA actually persuaded the FAA to END the very sweet regulatory deal we had regarding gyros: you could prove your piloting ability to a CFI by demonstrating your competence ta flying a gyroGLIDER. You could get a private ticket by, again, demonstrating competence in the gyroglider. That's how I did it, back in the 70's.

PRA reps claiming to act in PRA's interest asked the FAA to get rid of this rule. IMHO, they were doing what best promoted THEIR instructional business, contrary to the interests of the PRA's rank and file.

So if PRA were to resume its role as spokesperson for the gyro community in regulatory matters, it would have to be kept on a short leash.

 

[Abid]

Right, Ron, the original reasons don't exist anymore.

An organization that runs rotorcraft flyins each year (Bensen days, Mentone, or both) makes sense to me. Those events are fun, educational, and well worth the price of admission, IMHO.

Organized representation before the FAA seems uber-valuable as well.

A footnote to that, though: At one time, influential people in the PRA actually persuaded the FAA to END the very sweet regulatory deal we had regarding gyros: you could prove your piloting ability to a CFI by demonstrating your competence ta flying a gyroGLIDER. You could get a private ticket by, again, demonstrating competence in the gyroglider. That's how I did it, back in the 70's.

PRA reps claiming to act in PRA's interest asked the FAA to get rid of this rule. IMHO, they were doing what best promoted THEIR instructional business, contrary to the interests of the PRA's rank and file.

So if PRA were to resume its role as spokesperson for the gyro community in regulatory matters, it would have to be kept on a short leash.

I don’t think any short leash is necessary for PRA. The takeoff accidents kind of prove the instruction isn’t quite adequate. FAA does not need anyone to see that. At the end of the day PRA’s mission now would be safety and growing rotorcraft market both gyroplanes and sport helicopters safely. That means making sure that we get a proper reasonable minimum safety design standards via ASTM without the big drama and also developing safe instructors list. New people coming in have no idea which instructors are safe or not.

 

[MikeBoyette]

I was certain that the Nitro Circus types, the motorcycle jumping, dirt truck racing NASCAR folks like Travis Pastrana Hailee Deegan, both who ventured into NASCAR from dirt. A few years back, NASCAR driver (semi-retired) Ryan Newman, from South Bend, IN. had his wife fly him, in his helicopter, to MENTONE to learn about and buy a gyroplane, unfortunately, it was NOT the week of the convention. I tipped several manufacturers to his desire. I doubt any acted on it as I have not received a royalty check. All it takes is one Cleetus McFalrand (you tube him) to light the gyro world up.

Cleetus is down here and now owns the oval track at Bradenton. He flys helicopters. I have messaged him a few times inviting him to Bensen Days. I got no response. I quit watch whistling diesel after he destroyed a perfectly good mini 500 by letting it fly inside of his hangar with no one on board. That was a waste of a perfectly good helicopter.

 

[Abid]

Trouble is, not many people want a basic, open-frame gyro anymore.

Perhaps Americans are not as brave as they were when the Bensen gyro came out (those hardy 1950's-60's gyro buyers had survived the 1930's Depression and WWII; moreover, many more grew up in rural locations than is now the case). An open-frame aircraft looks absolutely insane to the average person today -- a person who has maybe once braved an airline flight to Florida, knuckles white the whole time.

...

Yes Americans are no where near as adventurous as many Europeans and Australians even.
Part of the reason is American typical customer coming in now is much older than the one coming in in the 60's, 70's and 80's. and maybe even in the early 90's. They want a more comfortable aircraft to fly in and do as little of the work as possible, plain and simple. But it is what it is.
Why people in their 40's, and 50's not coming in as much. I have some ideas but that question is beyond my pay grade and a question for an economist who studies trends in countries. I think it does say something about decline of American buying power and income level for the middle class but that's just a guess.

 

[GyrOZprey]

I BET ..if PRA announced they were going to disband - sell the airport assets and distribute funds among the current membership ......(150-ish???)
THERE WOULD BE AN AVALANCHE of memberships & renewals!
EASY$'s talks!

With an approved ( great student SAFETY-record) CFI list ... we could direct students to careful & thorough CFI's ...improve the insurance stats!

Rest easy ...WE THE CURRENT BOD ARE trying to find worthwhile member benefits to attract the needed members to survive!

PRA CAN be relevant in todays gyro era .... we just need feedback from owners!

 

[Vance]

I am proud to be a member to the Popular Rotorcraft Association.

I thought the airport and the museum looked great.

I had a great time at the convention.

I probably spent around $3,000 on the trip from California and feel it was money well spent.

The PRA dues seem a small price to pay to stay in touch with so many friends.

PRA chapter 1 has a nice newsletter and I feel it would be nice if the Popular Rotorcraft Association did to.

There are lots of posts on the Rotary Wing Forum that would be perfect for a digital newsletter.

 

[Mayfield]

PRA chapter 1 has a nice newsletter and I feel it would be nice if the Popular Rotorcraft Association did to.

There are lots of posts on the Rotary Wing Forum that would be perfect for a digital newsletter.

I think this is a brilliant idea Vance.

We have Doug Riley, Abid, Christine, hopefully some helicopter folks, you, and a plethora if others that could write short articles.

We would need an editor. Someone with experience running a company in the tech sector, maybe with experience in adventure sports, being a gyro CFI would be a plus and being mostly retired would help as well.

Being based in the Pacific time zone near zip code 93454-93458 would be great also.

When are you accepting the first articles? How are you formatting the ezine?

 

[Sv.grainne]

I think this is a brilliant idea Vance.

We have Doug Riley, Abid, Christine, hopefully some helicopter folks, you, and a plethora if others that could write short articles.

We would need an editor. Someone with experience running a company in the tech sector, maybe with experience in adventure sports, being a gyro CFI would be a plus and being mostly retired would help as well.

Being based in the Pacific time zone near zip code 93455 would be great also.

When are you accepting the first articles? How are you formatting the ezine?

I can't answer the first questions but will probably offer both Flipping book and flat .pdf versions of any non copyrighted or otherwise restricted media.

 

[Mayfield]

I can't answer the first questions but will probably offer both Flipping book and flat .pdf versions of any non-copyrighted or otherwise restricted media.

You probably think I'm kidding Bobby but your gyro journey is worth memorializing as well. I know you have posted a lot about your adventure, but consolidated and published in episodes would be inspiring. There are still builders out here and a builder's corner type section would be welcome.

Jim

 

[WaspAir]

. . . and also developing safe instructors list. New people coming in have no idea which instructors are safe or not.

With an approved ( great student SAFETY-record) CFI list ... we could direct students to careful & thorough CFI's ...improve the insurance stats!

This idea makes me very uncomfortable. First, that's fundamentally a governmental regulatory function. If bad instructors are getting through the system, the system needs fixing ASAP. I have long worried about the adequacy of Sport CFI preparation and this idea only reinforces my concern.

Second, setting up a body to approve or deny approval walks close to the line exposing the body to legal liability to those who don't pass muster.

If there really is a problem, put the effort into getting the FAA to clean up the system. Self-policing is something for which PRA has no structure, expertise, authority, or experience.

 

[Vance]

I think this is a brilliant idea Vance.

We have Doug Riley, Abid, Christine, hopefully some helicopter folks, you, and a plethora if others that could write short articles.

We would need an editor. Someone with experience running a company in the tech sector, maybe with experience in adventure sports, being a gyro CFI would be a plus and being mostly retired would help as well.

Being based in the Pacific time zone near zip code 93454-93458 would be great also.

When are you accepting the first articles? How are you formatting the ezine?

I am not volunteering to be the editor of the PRA magazine Mayfield.

I am not good with computers, have no desire to learn a new program and have a life filled with activities and joy.

I am several versions back on my Microsoft Word because I was not able to make the latest work.

Thank you for thinking of me Mayfield.

 

[Abid]

This idea makes me very uncomfortable. First, that's fundamentally a governmental regulatory function. If bad instructors are getting through the system, the system needs fixing ASAP. I have long worried about the adequacy of Sport CFI preparation and this idea only reinforces my concern.

Second, setting up a body to approve or deny approval walks close to the line exposing the body to legal liability to those who don't pass muster.

If there really is a problem, put the effort into getting the FAA to clean up the system. Self-policing is something for which PRA has no structure, expertise, authority, or experience.

This has nothing to do with inadequacy of Sport CFI. There are instructors and even examiners for both sport and private with a pattern of bad records. PRA would be sanctioning anyone. We are simply going to have a PRA CFI list if the CFIs become PRA members and qualify in which part of the criteria is number of students who have accidents or incidents. Anyone can find this information if they researched enough. It is public ally available info. New people in aviation just do not know to look for that info.

Whether FAA decides to keep giving 709 checkrides or not is FAA’s business and no one is going to have a real impact on them about that though there isn’t a harm in trying.

 

[WaspAir]

part of the criteria is number of students who have accidents or incidents. Anyone can find this information if they researched enough. It is public ally available info. New people in aviation just do not know to look for that info.

Humor me. Where does one look?

 

[Mayfield]

I am not volunteering to be the editor of the PRA magazine Mayfield.

I understand Vance. Even though you would be perfect for the job, I can understand why you would not be willing or able to devote time to such a labor for the betterment of the community.

 

[Abid]

Humor me. Where does one look?

NTSB reports.
I am guessing your point is that gives only Pilot name and you don’t see their CFI name there.

Fair point. But if the pilot is fairly new or a student pilot, the CFI name can be found though admittedly not easily.
I think however, to improve safety stats and this get more chances of containing insurance rates it has to be revealed which CFIs students are having a pattern of accidents for new students. The final decision is still theirs. Unless you have a better way.

 

[WaspAir]

I have never seen any resource where you can plug in the name (or certificate number) of a particular CFI and get a listing of former students, listing of logbook endorsed privileges or proficiency checks for them, or even accidents / incidents involving former students. Some of that data is never reported to anybody but is buried across many individuals' logbooks. I don't have some of that information for my own former students (except that I haven't heard of any accidents). I don't even know where to get pass/fail rates for practical exams for students of a particular CFI (although supposedly the FAA sometimes monitors that for high volume DPEs and CFIs, especially after a complaint from the public or if a pattern of accidents is detected).

Without access to that kind of information, any PRA criteria would be without supporting data, meaning only gossip and reputation can be reflected. Let's not go there with the illusion of increasing safety.

 

[Sv.grainne]

You probably think I'm kidding Bobby but your gyro journey is worth memorializing as well. I know you have posted a lot about your adventure, but consolidated and published in episodes would be inspiring. There are still builders out here and a builder's corner type section would be welcome.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I plan to do that but will need some editorial help. I love talking about my gyro journey!

 

[Mayfield]

Thanks Jim. I plan to do that but will need some editorial help. I love talking about my gyro journey!

I really think the idea of a forum newsletter has merit. We almost have the same thing now. I find myself carefully reading many posts and being entertained while garnering knowledge.

A process by which articles could be generated, edited, compiled and put in a downloadable formatted would be nice.

I don't have the skills required, but someone like Vance Breese, Tyler Hathaway, JR Stark, Wayne Salleng, or Doug Riley do.

I lack the words to explain what I would like. I guess I want to be able to easily find, download, and print the stories of the people here, along with posts containing educational materials.

Posts are written and responded to and then they disappear into a difficult to search electronic morass.

For example: I am very much an advocate of landing any aircraft with minimal ground speed. Some accidents can be attributed to touching down with excessive ground speed. It would be nice if the wealth of information here could be searched by someone trying to understand the landing process.

Hell, maybe I just want a better search feature with an easily accessed index.

Jim

 

[Loren Jones]

I think it does say something about decline of American buying power and income level for the middle class but that's just a guess.

Compare the average home being built in the 1950s-60s with the average home being built today. Today's would have been considered mansions back then. I think far too many people make themselves "house-poor" at the expense of leisure time to enjoy other hobbies/pursuits.