Please rate my "Barn Find" Gyro...

[madwinger]

Welcome Tom

Welcome Tom

Tom, welcome to the Forum, to Gyros and to the USA. Your find was a fantastic deal. Rebuilding a barn find can be a rewarding experience and I wish the best of luck. This is the place to be to get answers to the million questions your going to have.

PRA Chapter 2 is here in the Utah Wasatch front. From where you are it may be a little closer than Denver but probably a wash. We would love to have you as a part of Chapter 2 if you decided come this way. Our meetings are usually on second Saturday of the month at various locations along the Wasatch front. the meetings will be held by webcast in November, December and January I believe will go back to regular live meetings in Feb or March. Be sure to subscribe to the monthly news letter "Western Rotor craft" on the Chapter Web site.

I purchased what was advertised as an airworthy Air Command in July but in actually it was in barn find condition. I had no idea what I was looking at as I just wanted one and thought I was getting a good deal but it was not.

But your purchase is a great deal and yes you will have to put some money out to get her airworthy but at the price you paid you will be way head.

My advise to you is call Air Command and talk to Doug or John at 903-527-3335, tell them what you have and have them send you a build manual. Then go thru the the gyro and get intimate with every nut and bolt and bolt. You don't know real condition of anything on that Gyro so you will have to find out your self. My front end was put together wrong. Had I not taken it apart and referenced the build manual I would have never know that. If you have the Air Command seat tank make sure you replace all the rubber bushings that hold in the fuel fittings and inspect any rubber components. Replace all the fuel lines with new hose. You can get pretty much any thing you need for this by mail from Aircraftspruce.com Closely inspect the joystick and cyclic control block for wear and anything bent or cracked. The recommended specs for the push rods have changed and need to be 1" 6106T6 tubing with .058 thickness walls. There was a manufacturing defect in the early rudders that trapped air made them bubble and distort so make sure you don't have one of those.

Ask a lot of questions here. there is a wealth of info and experience he to be your guide.

Best of luck and hope to meet and fly with you some time in the future.

Mark

 

[Rikeshay]

Was that the gyro for sale out of Texas? I monitor Barnstormers regularly and it looks just like the one I saw last week for sale along with a white Dominator. That one was listed for $8,000.00. The problem I saw with that one was the Horizontal stabilizer was to small. The Dominator was the better deal and they have lowered the price to $7,500.00 since they dropped the Air Command off the add. It is a good deal just for the purpose of parting out if you only paid $2,000.00. I would suggest getting a bigger horizontal stabilizer though if you plan to fly it.

 

[Mike484]

The one in Texas is now in the Chapter 62 hangar and now belongs to one of our members, not the same gyro as I this thread.

 

[Rikeshay]

With regard to literature on it go to https://www.aircommand.com/ would be a start. I believe you could find out more about your craft by going there first. If nothing else it would be a good lead to where to go.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." (Lord Acton, 1887)

 

[Rikeshay]

I wasn't sure Mike but you are right. The one in Barnstormers didn't say it had a blade hit.

 

[Timchick]

Like everyone has said, have someone inspect the blades and rotor head. If it had a rotor strike I'd also replace the mast. A friend of mine purchased a used Air Command that had a "light" blade strike. My friend was flying it after he purchased it and all of a sudden it started shaking. He set it down asap and found out the 2x2 mast had been weakened by the blade strike and was flexing, causing the shaking, as he was flying. If he hadn't set it down immediately the mast may have broken in flight. I'd also recommend the extended rear keel, flipping the engine upright and adding the CLT (center line thrust) kit. I know all this costs money but with the price you paid you are way ahead. Remember, this is a life-long dream of yours. Don't take short cuts now and have it end tragically. Take your time, keep making progress on it and seek advice from some experienced builders/pilots.

 

[GA Rotor Guy]

Looks like you bought yourself a project, with lots of effort leading to lots of fun flying!
Welcome to Rotor Forum, PRA, and Gyro's!!!

I bought my 'barn find' last summer, however it was/is a fine machine that was in the middle of a rebuild when the owner chose to quit flying. Even though some of the best gyro guys in the SE region of the USA had a hand in rebuilding it (to the stage it was); the only really safe thing to do was to take it totally apart and inspect literally EVERY part... and I can say from careful inspection of all the parts, the build quality was really good when I got it (however one only knows if they do the dis-assembly and rebuild ). (Note a few things which led to the total dis-assembly and rebuild were the former owner is a lot smaller than me... thus the need for different dimensions in specific areas). Along the way of doing a total rebuild, one can sand the parts smooth, prime, paint and have a nice looking machine when re-assembly is done.

I would highly recommend to find a couple of folks you can converse with who know gyro's. Their expertise in examining your gyro, explaining endless details and answering questions, and helping you make decisions as you rebuild, will be literally priceless!

The advise about center line thrust, drop keel, turn the engine right side up, new mast, better (larger) tail, having the rotorhead and rotor area THOROUGHLY INSPECTED by a COMPETENT gyro person... with intent to replace literally anything that is not 100%... would be a good start! You will find more things as you rebuild... hence the importance of doing a total rebuild.
As we all know... our lives literally HANG on the parts in our flying machines.

When you have it almost ready, start training.

Looking forward to meeting you someday at a fly-in somewhere... I know GA (state) and your area are a long ways apart, however someday we will cross roads.

Keep us informed as to how your project is going, and we LOVE pictures...

 

[tonyutset]

Lowpass,

I am 6 months ahead of you!

I purchased a original Air Command Commander W/503 Rotax about 6 months ago. Original in my case means: Short keel 47", new ones are 58" long, and No Horizontal stabilizers; Air command (today) actually considers the Gyro Non-Airworthy without the stabilizers. So like your I need to invest a little $ and lots of TLC before I get it in the air.

Like you I wondered if I had made a good deal, reality is if you paid $2K for a pile of parts chances are it's a good starting point. This is not real-estate, it's a passion and if you worked on it for 3 or 4 years without getting in the air, you got 3 or 4 years of hobby entertainment out of it, and that's ok in my book. However, like most on this site I would prefer to see you in the air someday.

As you have already experienced this site is the best gyrocopter site for information, guidance, training, trouble shooting, and the development of thick skin. The members (regardless of their comments and opinions') truly mean well. This is a very unforgiving sport/hobby, I guess it's only fitting that some of the comments and opinions are sometime "interpreted" as being a little harsh. Please note that I emphasized "interpreted".

I look at this site as a tough love site, in that you can't expect to come here and have members agree with you, because a lot of time they won't, years of experience and the unfortunate occasional lost of a good friend will teach you that.

When I purchased my gyro I posted some information in which I tried to justify why I was only extending the keel verses converting to a CLT configuration, and that post was met with some tough-love comments. I was pissed, but they were right, all of them, and when I called Air Command they (being a business) politely suggested I would be a fool not to upgrade to a CLT configuration.

My CLT kit ($1,800 if anyone is wondering) arrived on Saturday, and so begins the process of reshaping the aircraft. Pictures to follow.

Stick with it, and stick with the site, you won't regret it!
Feel free to PM if you want to compare notes.

Good luck !

 

[NetPilot]

I rate it an excellent deal

I rate it an excellent deal

Tom,

Welcome to the Forum and congrats on your find! You have far more value in parts than the $2900 you have invested (especially if those blades are, in-fact, in good shape - I believe they are McCutchens!). I wish I had found that deal, blades or not!

A few thoughts/ideas/suggestions:

Do a FULL rebuild with intent to get N-Numbered and Builder-of-record certificate - Plan to do a bolt-by-bolt teardown and rebuild. Replace everything that is suspect, out of spec, or highly recommended for upgrade. Take lots of pictures of the process (with your smiling mug in them) with the intent of getting a Builder's Certificate (so that you can legally do your own repairs/inspections/etc.) And, get it N-numbered as well. If you do the upgrades mentioned in this thread, you can easily pass the FAA's 51% build requirement. And, more importantly, when you do this you will become INTIMATE with the machine, knowing if anything is out of place, because you put it there! Get experts to review your work.

CLT (Center Line Thrust) Upgrade - As many have mentioned, the Air Command single, as originally designed has a poor safety record. And, as one of my friends (who owns an Air Command) puts it, it's a "bunt-o-matic." For what it gives you in improved stability and saftey, the $1800 cost of the CLT kit is nominal. Just do it.

Tall Tail Upgrade - I imagine someone may poo-poo me for saying this, but I am going to suggest you consider installing a Dominator-type Tall-Tail on the machine at some point. Aside from Center Line Thrust, one of the other key safety features that most gyro folks agree on is the inclusion of a significant horizontal stabilizer. And, putting it directly in the middle of the propwash is usually considered an additional plus for several reasons. Further, you can read on the Forum that many folks say that the Tall-Tail is one of the most (if not THE most) important factors that gives the Dominator it's undeniable handling characteristics. You can read herein where folks say even a GyroBee flies very much like a Dominator with the addition of that tail. Here is an example of a tall-tail A/C:
https://peachstaterotorcraft.org/cg...r=captainamerica&image=CaptainAmericaGyro.jpg

In my view, if you make the two modifications above, you will have one of the safest, most agile, and most stable gyros in the air, and with excellent ground handling as well. A hard combination to find. Win-Win!

Again, congrats again on your find! Keep us posted.

Mark

 

[tonyutset]

Mark,

That's great advise, I am in the process of building my CLT / Air Command and I am following a lot of your recommendations. I have a detailed log with lots of photos, but didn't think to include myself in any of the pic's.

I can see where the FAA or other authorized certifying person might question why the builder isn't in any of the photos, although we all know the builder is generally the one taking the pic's.

In either case it's very good advise, and clearly solidifies the fact the you were the builder. I am thinking of possibly loading the log on a web page, I currently have it in PP.

By the way I converted the FAA Experimental Aircraft builders checklist to an MS Excel spreadsheet that automatically calculates the builders percentage. I need to figure out a way to upload it, so other builders can take advantage of it.

Thanks again for the advice, I hope you don't get stomped on for recommending we have the Gyros' registered with an N-number, I have heard a dozen times, "Why do you want to go through that trouble"! I for one respect anyone's preference to fly as an ultralight, however, Like you I am an advocate of having it registered with an N-number.

Safe Flying !

 

[NetPilot]

...I can see where the FAA or other authorized certifying person might question why the builder isn't in any of the photos, although we all know the builder is generally the one taking the pic's.

Thanks Tony for your reply! This is exactly what happened to my friend who owns the CLT A/C in the picture I linked. The FAA guy questioned why he was not in any of the pics and if he really did the work. If I remember correctly, his wedding band was in one or two of them. He squeaked through, but said it would have been easier had he been in some of them. On a funny note, his very young grandson or nephew was in one of the pics and they ended up joking that maybe HE was the builder.

...By the way I converted the FAA Experimental Aircraft builders checklist to an MS Excel spreadsheet that automatically calculates the builders percentage. I need to figure out a way to upload it, so other builders can take advantage of it...

I would love to have a copy of this. I will PM or email you my email address. I am sure a lot of other folks would like to get their hands on it too!

Hey, you planning on being at Bensen Days? With the A/C? It would be great to see you there!

Mark

 

[GyroDoug]

Tom,

You are a long drive (about 6 hrs) from the Utah PRA Chapter 2, but if you value your life and are serious about learning to fly a Gyroplane, driving to Utah to get your machine inspected by someone that know more than you do, and to get help and advice on making your aircraft safe to fly, and to get the training you will need, is simply one of the costs you will need to be willing to make to arrive safely at your goal of being able to safely fly a Gyroplane.

I understand why you posted this thread, and your desire to confirm the path you have started down was a good decision. But the truth is, you are way to early in the process to be able to judge much about it yet. You haven't even seen the Gyro you bought yet. While it could be in perfect condition and not need anything beyond a thorough inspection, it could also need a complete re-build, only time and some careful inspections will tell you those answers. But often, these kind of deals come with at least a few unexpected surprises and they usually end up costing the new owner a lot more than he was originally expecting to spend. I suspect it will end up costing you somewhere between $5,000 to $15,000 to get to a point where you can safely fly this Gyro (including training costs). Only time will tell what that number will be.

We have a couple other members of our chapter that have bought Air Commands and are re-building them so they will have some invaluable insights and advise for you as they are basically currently doing what you are about to start doing. We invite you to join our chapter and get as involved as you can. You may not be able to drive down each month for our monthly meetings but I suspect you will be able to make some of them (if it's a high enough priority for you) and the support and help you will find will mean much more than you than you are likely to be able to understand right now. You can find out more about us on our website (pra2.org) or you are welcome to give me a call if you would like to talk about anything. My personal cell # is (801) 628-7598.

Best of luck with your upcoming project,
Doug Barker
PRA 2 President