Doug Riley
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...and prosper...
Past Gyro Accident
- Thread starter mceagle
- Start date
Alan Coats
Gold Member
Doug said -
"I did a little article for the PRA mag on the topic of starting procedures and Emailed it to the office this morning."
That's great! I'll look forward to seeing it. I am sure that I will learn all this in my training, but it is good to read about these things ahead of time. Might even make a difference on how I build something on my machine.
Thanks,
Alan
"I did a little article for the PRA mag on the topic of starting procedures and Emailed it to the office this morning."
That's great! I'll look forward to seeing it. I am sure that I will learn all this in my training, but it is good to read about these things ahead of time. Might even make a difference on how I build something on my machine.
Thanks,
Alan
Dean_Dolph
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Good to see you contribute to the mag! Please don't stop with this one.Doug Riley said:
I would suggest to everyone that sending articles straight to editor Rick Gilley might be more efficient. Chuck B. posted Rick's email address in the 'Magazine Article Topic' thread https://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=47208#poststop
LARRYEBOYER
Gold Member
I hate to admit this one almost fatal error. I am a big, big believer in Murphy's law. I was demonstrating my e-81 rebuild for a friend who was a builder for years. I had the throttle closed and was attempting a hand prop. He was at the front of the gyro. I made the ignition hot and pulled the prop through. It started in open throttle. I had my foot on the landing gear bracing the craft. If it wasn't for my friend being around the front of the aircraft , (I think a lesser experienced person would have paniced and ran) He put his body into the front nose of the pod and held on. I was able to reach the switch and shut it down.I was amazed to find that a bracket I had constructed for the throttle cable had shifted and opened the throttle even though I had the throttle closed. I never caught it. I had started the engine many times without any assistance. I was so lucky Mr. Miller was there or I could have been prop fodder/hamburg.I now always check the carb and throttle every time to make sure it is closed. Good advice from all. Mr Murphy is alive and well!!!
bones
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This is just something that i TRY to do most times when starting mine as most time i'm the only one there, it's very simple just wheel it around and put the front tyre against my trailer or the shed door, that way if something should go wrong i has a couple of seconds before its the **** is all gonna hit the fan, then when i'm ready just spin it around get in and go.
donshoebridge
Gold Member
Being that most gyro's are open for inspection, checking for proper throttle operation (ie, the cable, the carb, etc.) should be part of the pre-flight.
I'm not trying to slam you Larry. It's just that throttle function is not one of the more common areas that gets checked. I'm sure we all were/are guilty of this to a degree.
I'm not trying to slam you Larry. It's just that throttle function is not one of the more common areas that gets checked. I'm sure we all were/are guilty of this to a degree.
Cobra Doc
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Don't think for a minute that these accidents are limited to gyros. The hard wing guys make the same mistake on a weekly basis. The first aircraft accident I ever saw was a dead battery in a Super Decathlon. No tie downs, no chocks, no rated pilot in the drivers seat, full throttle. Fortuneatly only the pilots ego and butt were bruised. The Decat was a big mess. I'm not sure it was ever rebuilt after hitting a wall following a 75' run full bore.
Doug Riley
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At an ultralight flyin a dozen or so years ago, it was about 6:00 a.m. I was still in my tent. Other participants were, too. The tents were in a line alongside one of the runways. We heard a Rotax go to full bore and an aircraft start its takeoff run -- typical wise-guy early bird. Even from inside a tent, you could follow the plane's takeoff and curving flight overhead by the sound of its engine. Then there was a tremendous bang, followed by crackling and a deep thud -- very fatal-sounding noises.
Upon clambering outside, we saw the remains of a brand-new 2-place Kolb dangling vertically out of a tree. But no one was in it.
The battery had run down and the (new) owner had hand-propped the machine from behind. It went to full throttle, tore off down the runway by itself, flew up in a climbing arc while barely clearing the line of tents, and
was stopped from departing the area for Chicago by crashing full tilt into the tree -- followed by falling out of the tree with a thud.
A beautiful plane was demolished. All us tenters narrowly escaped becoming snacks for that prop.
Somebody who gets TOO used to electric starting is often more dangerous when the battery goes dead that someone who hand-starts all the time.
Upon clambering outside, we saw the remains of a brand-new 2-place Kolb dangling vertically out of a tree. But no one was in it.
The battery had run down and the (new) owner had hand-propped the machine from behind. It went to full throttle, tore off down the runway by itself, flew up in a climbing arc while barely clearing the line of tents, and
was stopped from departing the area for Chicago by crashing full tilt into the tree -- followed by falling out of the tree with a thud.
A beautiful plane was demolished. All us tenters narrowly escaped becoming snacks for that prop.
Somebody who gets TOO used to electric starting is often more dangerous when the battery goes dead that someone who hand-starts all the time.
birdy
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Maybe a good thing you can't hand start a rotax 4 banger then ay??
Chopper Reid
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or a fuel injected Suby 2.2 !!!
Udi, I'm with you in regard to any extra switches that may or may not work when required.
Udi, I'm with you in regard to any extra switches that may or may not work when required.
scott heger
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For those that might have missed this post in April last year, just a ugly reminder:
Mac+prop=Win, right arm.....lost
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last week a new owner of a Benson/Mac powered gyro nearly lost his arm with a prop strike at our airport.
The owner had recently acquired the gyro and had asked me to test fly it for him. I questioned him about his prior experience , and he told me that he had "some" time in helicopters. Further questions revealed that he was a student in helicopters, had 10-15 hours and had no license. I told him to go get some training in a gyro, and after that, I would be willing to balance it, but not fly it, as it had no insurance, a airport requirment. He was quite insistant on flying it without going and getting any more training,, and after spending 45 minutes telling him all the places and reasons to get training, he was not listening. I finally told him that if he really insisted to do it by himself, go to El Mirage where there wasn't much to run into, and to take a safety companion.
Well apparently, he didn't like everything I told him, and went over to the other side of the airport to talk to (yes its him) Dennis Fetters. I was told Dennis also told him(according to a third party) to seek training, and that the Airport(AJO) was a poor place to practice and learn.
I show up to the airport after being gone for two weeks, and 3 people come up to me with "did you here what happened to the other gyro". Well my heart felt heavy, as I felt he had crashed.....but, no. He had hand prop started the Mac alone(witout chocks), and managed, (story varies how) to getting the throttle wound up, and it nearly severed his right arm, leaving skinless hanging flesh, bone and blood everywhere. The gyro continued in a semicircle, puncturing a hanger door and imbedding itself. The picture of his arm injury is so grusome, that I am not going to post it, but you would NEVER hand start another Mac if you saw the damage it did to him. All three paramedic units from the City of Corona responded, along with a Mercy Air helicopter, and transported him to Loma Linda Hospital trama Center. The quick action saved his life, the arm is still in doubt.
I can only wish for his recovery, but his life will be changed forever. To all you newbies, please listen.... get qualified training and instruction. This is a example where the gyro damned near killed the "pilot" and he was no where near getting to a runway yet. Listening to what other experienced people told him, would have saved a immense amount of pain and suffering.
Scott Heger,l Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH
__________________
__________________
You are only as good as your last flight
Mac+prop=Win, right arm.....lost
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last week a new owner of a Benson/Mac powered gyro nearly lost his arm with a prop strike at our airport.
The owner had recently acquired the gyro and had asked me to test fly it for him. I questioned him about his prior experience , and he told me that he had "some" time in helicopters. Further questions revealed that he was a student in helicopters, had 10-15 hours and had no license. I told him to go get some training in a gyro, and after that, I would be willing to balance it, but not fly it, as it had no insurance, a airport requirment. He was quite insistant on flying it without going and getting any more training,, and after spending 45 minutes telling him all the places and reasons to get training, he was not listening. I finally told him that if he really insisted to do it by himself, go to El Mirage where there wasn't much to run into, and to take a safety companion.
Well apparently, he didn't like everything I told him, and went over to the other side of the airport to talk to (yes its him) Dennis Fetters. I was told Dennis also told him(according to a third party) to seek training, and that the Airport(AJO) was a poor place to practice and learn.
I show up to the airport after being gone for two weeks, and 3 people come up to me with "did you here what happened to the other gyro". Well my heart felt heavy, as I felt he had crashed.....but, no. He had hand prop started the Mac alone(witout chocks), and managed, (story varies how) to getting the throttle wound up, and it nearly severed his right arm, leaving skinless hanging flesh, bone and blood everywhere. The gyro continued in a semicircle, puncturing a hanger door and imbedding itself. The picture of his arm injury is so grusome, that I am not going to post it, but you would NEVER hand start another Mac if you saw the damage it did to him. All three paramedic units from the City of Corona responded, along with a Mercy Air helicopter, and transported him to Loma Linda Hospital trama Center. The quick action saved his life, the arm is still in doubt.
I can only wish for his recovery, but his life will be changed forever. To all you newbies, please listen.... get qualified training and instruction. This is a example where the gyro damned near killed the "pilot" and he was no where near getting to a runway yet. Listening to what other experienced people told him, would have saved a immense amount of pain and suffering.
Scott Heger,l Laguna Niguel, Ca SportCopter N86SH
__________________
__________________
You are only as good as your last flight
Harry_S.
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Such a sad, sad and devastating happening. God, why won't people listen.
.
.
PW_Plack
Active Member
There's a reason for requiring a rated pilot at the controls. This case in 2002 was said to involve an elderly man who reportedly won a flight as part of some sort of contest or raffle, and went to nearby Scappoose Industrial Airport to get his free ride...
On February 12, 2002, about 1500 Pacific standard time, a Piper PA-24-180, N7004P, registered to and operated by the pilot as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight, sustained substantial damage when it collided with a fence and trees at the Scappoose Industrial Airpark, Scappoose, Oregon. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time and no flight plan was filed. The private pilot received minor injuries and the passenger was fatally injured.
During a telephone interview and subsequent written statement, the pilot reported that after fueling, attempts to start the engine with the electric starter were unsuccessful, therefore, he decided to hand prop the engine. The pilot stated that he "pulled the prop through six to seven times" to purge the fuel in the cylinders. After this was completed, he instructed his passenger, seated in the right seat, to turn on the master switch. The pilot then turned the magnetos to the both on position, enriched the mixture, and opened the throttle one-quarter to three-eighths of an inch. The pilot also instructed his passenger on the operation of the "T" handle brake system, which had to be pushed in for the Johnson brake bar to work. The pilot stated that he then "pushed on the cowl to verify the brake was set. It was. I pulled the prop, and the engine instantly started". The pilot then started to walk around the wing when the engine RPM increased to high RPM and the airplane began to move forward. The wing knocked the pilot down and the airplane continued to travel across the ramp toward the runway. The aircraft crossed the runway and a taxiway before colliding with a fence and subsequently trees in a park on the west side of the airport.
The aircraft fuselage came to rest against a tree. Both wings and the left horizontal stabilizer separated from the fuselage.
The pilot stated that he does not know how the brake could have been released, and he reported no mechanical malfunction or failure on the NTSB Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report Form 6120.1/2. No ground tie down ropes or wheel chocks were used.
An automated weather observation at Scappoose reported at 1453, clear skies with 10 miles visibility and wind from 330 degrees at 3 knots.
Witnesses at the fuel pumps, reported to a Scappoose Police Department Officer, that the aircraft was traveling approximately 70 to 80 miles per hour when it collided with the fence and trees.
On February 12, 2002, about 1500 Pacific standard time, a Piper PA-24-180, N7004P, registered to and operated by the pilot as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight, sustained substantial damage when it collided with a fence and trees at the Scappoose Industrial Airpark, Scappoose, Oregon. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time and no flight plan was filed. The private pilot received minor injuries and the passenger was fatally injured.
During a telephone interview and subsequent written statement, the pilot reported that after fueling, attempts to start the engine with the electric starter were unsuccessful, therefore, he decided to hand prop the engine. The pilot stated that he "pulled the prop through six to seven times" to purge the fuel in the cylinders. After this was completed, he instructed his passenger, seated in the right seat, to turn on the master switch. The pilot then turned the magnetos to the both on position, enriched the mixture, and opened the throttle one-quarter to three-eighths of an inch. The pilot also instructed his passenger on the operation of the "T" handle brake system, which had to be pushed in for the Johnson brake bar to work. The pilot stated that he then "pushed on the cowl to verify the brake was set. It was. I pulled the prop, and the engine instantly started". The pilot then started to walk around the wing when the engine RPM increased to high RPM and the airplane began to move forward. The wing knocked the pilot down and the airplane continued to travel across the ramp toward the runway. The aircraft crossed the runway and a taxiway before colliding with a fence and subsequently trees in a park on the west side of the airport.
The aircraft fuselage came to rest against a tree. Both wings and the left horizontal stabilizer separated from the fuselage.
The pilot stated that he does not know how the brake could have been released, and he reported no mechanical malfunction or failure on the NTSB Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report Form 6120.1/2. No ground tie down ropes or wheel chocks were used.
An automated weather observation at Scappoose reported at 1453, clear skies with 10 miles visibility and wind from 330 degrees at 3 knots.
Witnesses at the fuel pumps, reported to a Scappoose Police Department Officer, that the aircraft was traveling approximately 70 to 80 miles per hour when it collided with the fence and trees.
mceagle
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Post # 14 - "Such accidents are still happening and will keep happening as long as the pilot is not taught correctly or has become complacent".
AND will happen again and again unless something is done about it. There are plenty of intellegent people out there, we must be able to think of something.
Perhaps we could detail a common speil that any member could (and is obliged to) quote to such irresponsible people - eg.
"If you intend to operate this aircraft in any way or manner, then it WILL injure or kill you unless you receive advise and/or training from a PRA recognised Instructor. Indifference to this rule could make you or your family liable for any damage, or costs incurred in the defence of the good name of the PRA".
AND will happen again and again unless something is done about it. There are plenty of intellegent people out there, we must be able to think of something.
Perhaps we could detail a common speil that any member could (and is obliged to) quote to such irresponsible people - eg.
"If you intend to operate this aircraft in any way or manner, then it WILL injure or kill you unless you receive advise and/or training from a PRA recognised Instructor. Indifference to this rule could make you or your family liable for any damage, or costs incurred in the defence of the good name of the PRA".
Alan Coats
Gold Member
Could some of you please post pictures of a setup for pull starting your engine from the seat?
It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, but it seems like there is always someone here with a good idea I never would have thought of for doing even the simplest things.
Thanks,
Alan
It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, but it seems like there is always someone here with a good idea I never would have thought of for doing even the simplest things.
Thanks,
Alan
Hognose
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A few years ago, Ron Wanttaja owned a Fly Baby (small fixed-wing homebuilt, designed by the late Pete Bowers) that was non-electric-system. It had once been used for glider towing and had a glider-tow hook attached to it.
Subsequently, the FAA banned glider towing from experimental aircraft (there was no accident or reason to do so, just FAA lawyers flexing their muscles). But Ron or somebody discovered that the tow hook was perfect for one-man (safe!) prop-starting.
1. Position the plane in front of a tiedown.
2. Tie a bowline in the tiedown rope, and snap it onto the glider hook.
3. Roll the plane forward to take up any slack.
4. Prop plane.
5. If you screwed up and it's at full throttle, the tiedown will hold it while you can safely go around the machine to retard the throttle.
6. When you are seated in the cockpit, goggles and helmet on, seat-belted in, and in all respects ready to fly, actuate the red JETTISON TOW knob in the cockpit.
7. Don't overdo it when you tie the bowline, or the guy whose tiedown it is will be furious that he has to grunt and strain to get it undone. Likewise, don't mess up the bowline (easy to do if you are new to the knot) and tie a figure-8 slip knot by mistake, or it may cinch down on your tow hook hard enough that it won't jettison.
8. At your home drome, it may make sense to put in an "extra" tiedown anchor with a length of nylon rope permanently tied in a bowline.
The only reason this would be a bad idea in a gyro is the added weight.
cheers
-=K=-
Subsequently, the FAA banned glider towing from experimental aircraft (there was no accident or reason to do so, just FAA lawyers flexing their muscles). But Ron or somebody discovered that the tow hook was perfect for one-man (safe!) prop-starting.
1. Position the plane in front of a tiedown.
2. Tie a bowline in the tiedown rope, and snap it onto the glider hook.
3. Roll the plane forward to take up any slack.
4. Prop plane.
5. If you screwed up and it's at full throttle, the tiedown will hold it while you can safely go around the machine to retard the throttle.
6. When you are seated in the cockpit, goggles and helmet on, seat-belted in, and in all respects ready to fly, actuate the red JETTISON TOW knob in the cockpit.
7. Don't overdo it when you tie the bowline, or the guy whose tiedown it is will be furious that he has to grunt and strain to get it undone. Likewise, don't mess up the bowline (easy to do if you are new to the knot) and tie a figure-8 slip knot by mistake, or it may cinch down on your tow hook hard enough that it won't jettison.
8. At your home drome, it may make sense to put in an "extra" tiedown anchor with a length of nylon rope permanently tied in a bowline.
The only reason this would be a bad idea in a gyro is the added weight.
cheers
-=K=-
Doug Riley
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Arrgh, matey, 'tis a sailor's knot we're ta be usin' now, is it? A bowline is a handy knot for all kinds of rope work.
Bensen gyros came equipped with a regulation sailplane tow hitch on the front end for gyrogliding. Some people used to move it to back end of the keel for use during startup, as Kevin describes.
Bensen gyros came equipped with a regulation sailplane tow hitch on the front end for gyrogliding. Some people used to move it to back end of the keel for use during startup, as Kevin describes.
ahancock
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Take a look at the Butterfly, www.thebuterflyinfo.com. it has the starter rope attached to the mast so it can be started from the seat.
Alan
Alan
joe6558
Junior Member
Butterfly website has moved.
Butterfly website has moved.
The Butterfly website has moved to:
www.thebutterflyllc.com
Butterfly website has moved.
The Butterfly website has moved to:
www.thebutterflyllc.com
Chris Burgess
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Self
Self
Can someone refresh me on the details of a fatal accident at El Mirage some time ago, envolving a KB-3? If it's in a "Rotorcraft" magazine, just give me the month and year. Thanks in advance.
Self
Can someone refresh me on the details of a fatal accident at El Mirage some time ago, envolving a KB-3? If it's in a "Rotorcraft" magazine, just give me the month and year. Thanks in advance.
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