open 2 place designs

Spank

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Antioch, CA
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American Ranger AR-1c
As a FW pilot, I've really enjoyed these threads the past few months and I'd like to move more into the Rotary wing direction over time. Since I know so much less about actual RW aircraft I was wondering what the general consensus is for new or used open 2 place gyro's that are safe for someone to purchase and learn in that falls within the under $40k market. I've generally seen the 2 places going new for at least 60k and up but I have also seen at least one (Tango 2) fall more in the $40k category. It seems rare to find something under that price range used that offers two seats other than many RAF's over the years. I'm not ready to buy something today but I'm just curious if anyone has advice for a pilot that wants to enter this category by purchasing something he can get direct instruction in and enjoy afterwards as he builds time.

Thanks,
Paul
 

Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
Hi

Lots of open two place tandem gyros to consider,


Auto-Gyro MTOsport - over 1,350 examples of this and its earlier predecessor (MT-03 ) built so far -Rotax engines - approx 51 in the USA

Magni M16 - approx 500 examples of this built so far - Rotax engines - approx 26 in the USA

Magni M22 - similar to M16 but with cheek travel pods - Rotax - 4 in the USA

ELA G7/G8 family - approx 450 built to date with 3 in the USA - Rotax

also

Explorer - approx 30 built todate with 4 in the USA - Rotax

Apollo AG-1 - approx 25 ? built to date - 4 in the USA - Rotax

Silverlight AR-1 - approx 15 ? built to date - 5 in the USA - Rotax

Skycruiser - approx 5? built to date - zero in the USA - Rotax

Tango2 -approx 10 built? - aprox 3 in the USA

Plenty to consider - some of the MTOsport and M16 have been flying in the US for over 5 years now, some now on the secondhand market.
 

helipaddy

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005'N 005'E
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Tandem Dominator, all the way.
 

Uncle Willie

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North Ridgeville, Ohio, USA
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AutoGyro Calidus.
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There are many selections available.
Many or all listed above may be available for sale for under 40k.

It is good that you are testing the waters first instead of jumping in head first.
Deciding to buy the least expensive 2 seater you can find may not be a good decision.

If you find a gyro that is priced significantly less than the rest, there is probably a good reason for that.
As long as you understand what you are giving up by getting a <40K Gyro instead of a >60K gyro, then OK. But be sure it is a very informed decision.

If you are just buying based on the price, it may cost you more in the long run.
Much more, including your life.
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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Dickson, Tn. USA
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Benson B7m & B8m, Dominator II; Kolb Mark III Classic
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750 combined FW & Gyro
Hello Paul:
I too come from the fixed wing world. The first question which comes to mind is:
What is the mission requirements?
What kind of range?
Etc.
Are you wanting to do mostly cross country type flying, or buzzing the corn tassels?
Knowing the main type of flying you are going to be doing, will determine the type of machine to fit the mission.
99% of my flying is crankin and bankin and low level playing. Most of my cross country is less than 50 miles. And I have seriously considered getting a CFI rating.
This being said; a Tandem Dominator fit my mission most closely!
And, that is what I have. A Tandem Dominator.
You are welcome to go to my Youtube channel and watch my videos:
Go to Youtube and search my name, David McCutchen
I suggest watching Slow flight - part 1 for starters.
Notice the takeoff distance; and the playing that I was doing; the slips and skids, slow flight, etc.
https://youtu.be/37-C-2xnErM
Hope this helps.
slow Flight - part 2; shows the landing of this flight.
Watch it and notice the landing and rollout.
lol
 

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Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
Brent - keep your eyes peeled on those secondhand adverts - some of your US M16s are ten years old now.

What price for secondhand 2006 M16 - all depends on hours/condition but may not be too far north of 40K.

I can see a 2007 MT-03 here in the UK for £37K, approx $44K.

Search and you may find.

Eyes open is better than blinkered.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Tampa, FL
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If you are interested I have a line on a used MTO Sport (300 or so hours) for $56k with radio, transponder and 914UL turbo charged. Send me a PM.
$40k 2 place new is pretty much going to have an alternate engine. Take your chances where you will.
It may be possible to locate a used 700+ hour Rotax 91x series powered 2 place if you can find it and keep it at near $40k. I personally would rather go for this than alternate engine.
 
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Spank

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Antioch, CA
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American Ranger AR-1c
Interesting discussion for me to hear all this. I'm more of a short cross country guy whom likes to go 40-120 miles or so for a meal on a regular basis. It wouldn't be beyond me to cross part of the US in time from Ca to Az but that would be more rare as most flights would be local low and slow flying. Probably a little banking and cranking once in a while but I'm not really into Top Gun flying. I'd like a more stable platform that handles wind gusts best and one that I can go low & slow and enjoy the flight along the way looking out. I also need a transponder and radio for the Bay area I fly out of.

Paul
 

dabkb2

Dave Bacon
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Britta is selling her air command for $20,000

AIR COMMAND TANDEM FOR SALE

Rotax 912, 100 HP, 1780 Hrs TT

Dependable and proven stable craft – AC extended tri-tail.

29 ft Sport Rotors, 72 inch – 3 blade Powerfin Prop, 10 gallon fuel capacity, 500lbs empty weight, intercom, EIS engine monitor, rotor tach front and rear. Comprehensive engine and airframe logs. Being used as a training machine in SE Arizona. Reason for selling: switching to an MTO Sport.

Enclosed Custom Fit Canvas Covered Trailer also available $4,000.00

Call Britta at 520-840-0951, or Mark at 520-840-0186 [email protected]

$20,000– Serious inquiries
 

Uncle Willie

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Cross country for the $100 Hamburger in an open cockpit is for the rugged type.
If you plan on taking a lady friend or the grandkids along, you might want to rethink this.

If you have any motorcycle experience you may recall that an hour at anything under 75 degrees with a 50 mph wind chill tends requires extra clothing.
After an hour you get pretty wind blow and start looking to take a rest.
It also gets 10° F Colder for every 3000 ft you go up. Mountains?
The Cabin Heat you are used to in a closed cockpit will not be available.

Consider how may months of the year have temperatures in the 80's in Antioch, CA. 6 months, May to October. ???
You might find that Flying Season becomes a pretty close match to Boating and Motorcycle Season.

Food for thought.
 

Aviomania

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eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
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The best kept secret in used gyros is the RAF, flys good, is warm in the winter, and if you

want, take the doors off in the summer. and the prices are great due to other pilots giving

the RAF a bad name,it had the same problems as all of the other gyros of that time,and

they have been resolved. My RAF has a 230 HP turbocharged Subaru engine I have more

than 675 hours without any trouble on the engine and stock raf drive unit.with the

Sportcoptor blades I now cruise 80-85 mph @ 3,900 engine RPM.

Also I have recently installed the same engine setup on another RAF and he is having

the same success as I have.These are great for high elevations especially when combined

with the Sportcoptor Blades.






Best regards,
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Cross country for the $100 Hamburger in an open cockpit is for the rugged type.
If you plan on taking a lady friend or the grandkids along, you might want to rethink this.

If you have any motorcycle experience you may recall that an hour at anything under 75 degrees with a 50 mph wind chill tends requires extra clothing.
After an hour you get pretty wind blow and start looking to take a rest.
It also gets 10° F Colder for every 3000 ft you go up. Mountains?
The Cabin Heat you are used to in a closed cockpit will not be available.

Consider how may months of the year have temperatures in the 80's in Antioch, CA. 6 months, May to October. ???
You might find that Flying Season becomes a pretty close match to Boating and Motorcycle Season.

Food for thought.
This is news to me.
I am hardly the rugged type and have been flying semi open enclosed trikes and gyroplanes in some form. I hate the cold. I have done many cross country flights. In the many 100's I would guess.

First the standard lapse rate is 2 degrees per thousand feet.
Second, gyroplanes and trikes generally fly below 3000 feet AGL.
In fact gyroplane pilots I know hardly ever go over 1500 feet AGL. I sometimes in trikes would go 7000 feet AGL on a long leg to fly with hands in my jacket in calm air. Gyro guys never do that in my experience.

In a state like California for the most part I would think a semi open machine like an MTO, AR-1, Tagna would be the way to go. Even in Florida temps are in the 50's in the mornings right now and that is absolutely no problem with a proper single jacket and right helmet like a Flycom.
A completely open machine surely is tiring in anything above 50 mph IMO. But a semi open one like listed above, you can easily cruise at 80 to 85 mph without getting tired or cold in warmer states.
 

PW_Plack

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First the standard lapse rate is 2 degrees per thousand feet.
According to the FAA's Glider Handbook:

Below 36,000 feet, the standard temperature lapse rate is 2 °C (3.5 °F) per 1,000 feet of altitude change.
So, 10ºF for every 3,000 feet is about right. The lapse rate is less in humid air.
 

Uncle Willie

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The purpose of my advice is to make sure that Paul is making an informed decision.
There is a lot that he may not have considered in the excitement to get airborne.
He can avoid any regrets that may appear after reality sets in.

I find that under 75°F a jacket is required behind a full Fairing on a Motorcycle, My Lady friend will refuse to ride at anything much cooler. Your experience will vary.
His local weather calls for highs in the 50's with lows in the 30's for the next week.
Not exactly Shorts and T-Shirts weather.

He is just outside of San Francisco.
He is not going to be flying below 500 feet anywhere in the area.
If he heads (West) East, in 100 miles he could be above 5000MSL and still be at 500AGL.
The Caifornia coast is surrounded by Mountains.
Buzzing 50ft off the open deserts and swamps is not going to be a common experience.

He will need to deal with operating under and in Class B airspace.
And a lot of air traffic. Remember that ADS-B is the law in 35 months.

By all means, he and any potential regular passenger should get an hour or so introductory flight in each type before making any decisions.
 
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fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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Tampa, FL
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The purpose of my advice is to make sure that Paul is making an informed decision.
There is a lot that he may not have considered in the excitement to get airborne.
He can avoid any regrets that may appear after reality sets in.

I find that under 75°F a jacket is required behind a full Fairing on a Motorcycle, My Lady friend will refuse to ride at anything much cooler. Your experience will vary.
His local weather calls for highs in the 50's with lows in the 30's for the next week.
Not exactly Shorts and T-Shirts weather.

He is just outside of San Francisco.
He is not going to be flying below 500 feet anywhere in the area.
If he heads west, in 100 miles he could be above 5000MSL and still be at 500AGL.
The Caifornia coast is surrounded by Mountains.
Buzzing 50ft off the open deserts and swamps is not going to be a common experience.

He will need to deal with operating under and in Class B airspace.
And a lot of air traffic. Remember that ADS-B is the law in 35 months.

By all means, he and any potential regular passenger should get an hour or so introductory flight in each type before making any decisions.
I just had an old customer come to add on gyroplane rating to his airplane CFI and commercial from San Francisco.
In the mountains he better aim for turbo charged engine like the 914UL and for SF Bay area he would need at least a good radio, com and Mode C transponder or a UAT for ADSB and then his desire for sub-40k machine just went to hell, I think. Just the avionics he needs end up being $8k new or more.
 

j bird

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Bill, I think you mean 100 miles east, not west, you'd be over the Pacific Ocean if you fly west from Antioch.
 
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