Oops! I did it again!

Kandace

Overachieving Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
591
Location
Germantown, WI
Aircraft
R22, R44
Total Flight Time
1954
Yes I went flying with Chuck today and I cannot get this silly grin off of my face. I know it will be here most of the week at least.

Are all of you gyro pilots sure this isn't illegal? Anything this much fun has just got to be against the law!

Seriously, we flew today for about an hour and a half total (2 flights) I learned alot and had a blast in the process. Honestly I could see doing this every day.

Blue Skies :cool:
 
Kandace,

Actually, it used to be illegal. The PRA petitioned the FAA and that is how the Experimental aircraft program came about.

Everyone flying an Experimental aircraft has the PRA to thank.

I am very glad to hear you are enjoying your training!
 
Congratulations Kandace! You're now a gyro addict.

Tim, the EAA is going to get you for blasphemy!!
 
Last edited:
They will have to get in line... ;)
 
Tim O'Connor, make that the EAA. Paul Poberezny and crew from Wisconsin. They did it long before PRA existed.
 
Doug,

Humm. that conflicts with something I read.

I will look that up tomorrow and let you know where I found it. Could be some mis-information I read. It seemed very detailed though, pity.

-Tim O
 
Tim, you may be thinking of the influences PRA has had on the FAA regs pertaining specifically to homebuilt gyros. These are the ones that I know of:

First, at Bensen's urging, the FAA at one time allowed pilots to get a gyro license without dual training. The CFI or examiner could stand and watch the student fly (in the case of the initial solo signoff by the CFI, the student would fly a gyroglider). This rule kicked in around the mid-60's. It remained the standard for homebuilt gyros until powered dual machines came along in the very early 80's.

Then Don Farrington, using PRA's name but without any advance consultation with, or even notice to, the PRA members, went the FAA and urged them to rescind this special provision of the regs. Thereafter, gyronauts had to take powered dual, first in certified machines (McC J-2 or Air & Space) and then (after the absurdity of this began to sink in) under the exemption allowing use of experimental trainers. ALL CFI's teaching in experimental gyros use this exemption, which is administered by PRA on FAA's behalf.
 
Doug,

Here is what I had read. It may be wrong, or I am mis-understanding it but it is where I got my info from:

From Autogiro to Gyroplane, by Bruce H. Charnov.

pp. 253-254

“The PRA became the voice of the American gyroplane community….”

“…Aviation Act of 1958 did not recognize the category of amateur-built experimental aircraft…..”

“….The PRA established a favorable and effective relationship with the FAA, eventually lobbying for the creation of an official “EXPERIMENTAL” category (more than 51% homebuilt required federal registration [N] number, an FAA airworthyness inspection prior to flight, and no commercial uses) and later the additional “ultralight” category………The experimental aircraft was to prove of tremendous benefit to the amateur market….”

Pages 265 through 268 have the sources for this chapters material.
 
Somebody substitured "PRA" for "EAA" accidentally or otherwise. It's been legal to fly experimental powered aircraft in the US since Dec 17, 1903. Paul Poberenzy was the driving force behind the "Experimental-Amateur Built" certification.
 
It was legal to fly experimental and homebuilt aircraft from the birth of aviation* through the 30's. I believe a ban dropped into place about the time of WWII (maybe because of the war, I don't know).

The ban remained in effect until Paul Poberezny and friends (Ray Scholler and some others?) lobbied the CAA for the homebuilt-experimental reg we have today. That happened in the early 50's, a decade before Bensen formed PRA to promote his kit gyros (which the EAA had made legally possible).

I'm sure Bruce Charnov would correct this error in future editions if someone let him know about it.

* there were some legal skirmishes early in the game about whether flying over someone else's property was trespassing. The Feds eventually got that straightened out under the Commerce Clause!
 
Cobra, Doug,

Thank you for the correction. I hate when I find out I have been passing out mis-information inadvertantly. :(

Are there some books you could recommend for me to read on this topic? I have always had an avid interest in avation history but I have no amature-avation history resources outside of Autogyiro to Gyroplane.
 
Tim: I heard about this history through articles in EAA's mag back when I belonged. You might call them and see if there's a book or reprints of the article(s) available that would tell the whole story.

I left EAA a few years ago because I didn't care for the overall EAA culture and especially their patronizing attitude about ultralights. Besides, their hijacking of modest U.L. reform to serve their (very different) agenda bugged me.
 
I'm baffled, I keep checking this post to see if any of the items that were recently added have anything to do with the original post I made. They do not. How come so many posts seem to get Hi-jacked? Could you please start a new post when the subject changes?

Thank you
 
You're right Kandace...the fun you're having is not illegal, so go and enjoy!!!

Doug is correct about the early FAA flight exams. In the early 70's, 1-2 or 3? I had the Rotorcraft, Gyroplane rating added to my Commercial ticket. Other than the J2 or A&S 18, there were no two seat machines to be used for a check ride...so I had to use my Bensen. FAA examiners weren't too keen on flying gyroplanes then anyway.

The FAA examiner and myself got together over the regs. and I wrote down a list of the maneuvers he wanted to see me perform. We made an appointment to meet at the airstrip...I performed his required list of maneuvers...and he signed me off.


Cheers :)
 
A little bit, Tom a little bit.

You know you would almost think I like it :rolleyes:
 
Doug Riley said:
It was legal to fly experimental and homebuilt aircraft from the birth of aviation* through the 30's. I believe a ban dropped into place about the time of WWII (maybe because of the war, I don't know).

The ban remained in effect until Paul Poberezny and friends (Ray Scholler and some others?) lobbied the CAA for the homebuilt-experimental reg we have today. That happened in the early 50's, a decade before Bensen formed PRA to promote his kit gyros (which the EAA had made legally possible).

I'm sure Bruce Charnov would correct this error in future editions if someone let him know about it.

* there were some legal skirmishes early in the game about whether flying over someone else's property was trespassing. The Feds eventually got that straightened out under the Commerce Clause!

Doug,

Could you referr me to a book or an article about this? EAA's 'history' site gives no mention.

https://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/pr/030110_chronology.html

I would like to send Dr. C an email but I don't want it to read "your book is wrong 'cause some guys on the internet said so" kinda thing. Hopefully, he wont mind a correction notice so long as I do it in a professional mannor...
 
Tim: I can't give you a precise reference. I've started tossing out tons of old aviation mags because otherwise they'd fill my house and I would have to live in my car.

I vaguely recall that EAA recapped this history in its "Experimenter" mag 4-5 years ago. Maybe EAA HQ could get you reprints or back issues containing that article.

The date of inception of the amateur-built experimental regs can be verified through the Code of Federal Regulations. It's well before PRA was founded. Those facts are public record. EAA's involvement would be documented only in their private archives, though.
 
Doug,

That does help. I will have to check and see if the public Libary has any EAA mags, books or something related.

If you can think of any specific dates please let me know.

Maybe a search on the ACT of 1958..
 
Back
Top