Old friends become best friends...

[Ron Iaconis]

Hi Vance

Hi Vance

That is an interesting maneuver Ron.

Why would you want to do that?

I have very little experience flying a gyroplane without a horizontal stabilizer (three hours) so I would be grateful for your experienced input.

I have often wondered what the advantage of not having a horizontal stabilizer was and now that you have explained it; I am sorry to say I am still confused.

I feel it would be reasonable to suggest The Predator has a very large horizontal stabilizer and a relatively tall vertical stabilizer.

I have not found a way for the rotor to hit the tail on The Predator without flapping the blades.

Please help me understand what am I missing as the advantage of no horizontal stabilizer on a gyroplane?

Thank you, Vance

Hi Vance,
Well, first I have had a "Full" tail ( tall tail) on a Basic Bensen and found it to be great for not having to add any rudder on take offs. And I liked that advantage. But I wanted to go back to an original Bensen " half" tail and the only thing I needed to do was counter the yaw imposed on take offs.
But back to what I mentioned,,regarding a "power push over".
A PIO PPO or Bunt over are all from my understanding are " no-no's"
All I am saying is that if you are on a climb out and nearing the top of the climb/( approaching)zero airspeed and with power, I believe if you abruptly push the stick full forward, then you will be able to chop off the tail as Ed Alderfer mentioned earlier in his explanation.
Vance, all I am attempting to say is that I feel perfectly comfortable flying with out a horizontal stabilizer. I have had one on my Bensen,,,as well as a "tall tail" and have since gone back to my basic Bensen and am perfectly happy and contented flying a Basic Bensen as it is.
I, again,,,,,am sick and tired of the critics,,,,," saying that a gyro is "Not Flight Worthy" with out a horizontal stabilizer.

PS: I am helping a new person to the gyro world, he has hours and hours of fixed wing logged time.
We are building a Basic Bensen, and it " HAS" a horizontal stabilizer. Why????? you may ask?
Basically,,,,to keep the critics mouths shut! Do I believe he could fly with out the HS? Y E S I feel that he could,,,,,But I asked him, regarding the question,,,,he said that he felt better with one added,,,so we added one,,,,,,
Ron
I have built several gyros( Parson's Two Seater as well), with a center line horiz stab, a low level stab, over the past 30 years, and continue to still favor my Basic Bensen,,,,for pure total enjoyment.

 

[Vance]

Thank you Ron!

Thank you Ron!

I would love to spend some time with you trying to be confused on a higher level about your feelings on a horizontal stabilizer.

I have not had enough experience flying without a horizontal stabilizer to have a strong opinion.

I often wonder how close to a non recoverable event I am.

I have had many people tell me that The Predator is dangerous to fly so perhaps I am desensitized to the not airworthy comments.

I enjoy your perspective and would like to see you post more often as you opinion is often not mainstream and your gyroplane experience outside of mine.

Thank you, Vance

 

[Ron Iaconis]

I appreciate your opinion, Vance

I appreciate your opinion, Vance

Hi Vance,
I am not any authority on gyro dynamics,,,as say,,,,Chuck Beaty,,,or Erney Boyette,,,,but all I can offer is that I have ,,,as my photos show,,,and I flew every one of my designs,,,and all I can say,,,is that for pure pleasure flying experience " FOR ME" is I love my Basic Bensen the way it is!!!!!
I love " Dirt Biking" in the sky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[phantom]

I once built a gyro with the tail feathers outside the rotor disk and in testing I was able to tilt the rotor forward fast enough to lift myself off the seat and it never ever came close to chopping the tail off so to me there is no danger from having a large HS on a gyro unless it is mounted at eye level and you walk into it and put an eye out.

Norm

 

[Stan V]

This thread has generated 60+ posts, and was taken off-topic by rude comments in only the seventh post.

The problem with this forum is not disrespect for low-timers. It's the roaming mob that feels the need to pounce on anyone who dares post a photo of a gyro with no horizontal stabilizer.

Gosh Paul, I didn't mean to be rude. Ed, I'm sorry, I didn't intend to offend you in any way. I just looked back to see who the Axe hole was in post seven that Paul was referring to and looked at the photos of your gyro again as well, You do have a very beautiful gyro. I hope we'll meet one day so I can apology to you in person.

 

[HydroGyroNut]

Even though I'm considered an inexperienced squeaky wheel(LOL) here and not expected to contribute anymore, I would still like to pitch in here because I find this discussion very interesting, and a place to share information and learn from others. I'm still confused as I still have not read anywhere or heard any explanation and good reason to the disadvantage of a horizontal stab. Again, I feel it's a forum and there should be no hurt feelings with contributions from anyone, irrespective of flight experience. One can have a lot of flight experience and be a great pilot but lack in the theoretical understanding of aerodynamics in gyroplanes and/or vice-versa..I have read a lot of theoretical information on gyroplanes and find them to be very interesting and unique flying machines, and we all agree on that. Yet individual homebuilders disagree on the need of a HS whilst all modern manufacturers building todays gyroplanes with horizontal stabs...Because there is scientific evidence of a pitch stability benefit. The benefit becomes even more important if the gyro has its center of pressure up ahead of the CG..The larger and further back the HS is, the better…of course, to a certain degree. The Bensens do not NORMALLY have a fuselage and large center of pressure up front and so are "relatively" more safe than any other gyrocopter which has a fuselage with center of pressure up front which would be a DeStabilizing factor. A modified Bensen withCenter of pressure up front would be more unstable than a regular BEnsen and maneuvers that would be done safely on a regular Bensen would be downright KAmikazi dangerous on a modified Bensen with a canopy and without a HS. I personally would not place a 'HS" just to keep the critics mouth shut. I would place one to preserve my life, but thats just me..

 

[HydroGyroNut]

If I'm misunderstanding this concept of gyroplane aerodynamics and design, please let me know bcos I really would like to understand this better if I'm wrong..

 

[Timchick]

The standard Bensen or Brock KB-2 with a direct drive prop on a mac is pretty close to CLT in stock form (from double hang tests performed at flyins). I had a KB-2 and put a stab on it. I never flew it without one so I don't have any experience to compare. It is not as bad as some of the high thrust line designs and those pilots are successfully flying them. If they've been flying them for years without one, why bother with one now. I think a lot of the resistance from people who don't have stabs is from their egos. They learned to fly old school without stabs and don't want anyone telling them how to do anything. The people who fly stabless high thrust line models couldn't care less about aerodynamics and physics. They've successfully learned how to chop the throttle when the machine is trying to kill them so what's the problem? Our efforts are better directed towards those who are new to the sport who are open to learning the physics along with everything else.

 

[HydroGyroNut]

Thanks Tim for clarifying. I apologize to all who i may have offended. If any one learnt anything, I surely did. I never wanted to offend anyone but felt as though I was being chastised for speaking out about the observed flaw in my mind. Paul, I hope U dont feel Im part of a roaming mob waiting to pounce on any photo of a gyro without a stab.. Not in the least. It is something I was particularly concerned about in my machine in its current configuration ,so i took notice.Hopefully, we all benefited in one way or the other from all of this. I leave this thread now in peace. Fly Safe everyone.

 

[Arnie Madsen]

Ron Iaconis .... I like your gyro pictures !!!!

 

[Ron Iaconis]

Thank you Arnie !!!!

Thank you Arnie !!!!

Ron Iaconis .... I like your gyro pictures !!!!

Hi Arnie, thanks for the compliment.
I appreciate our PRA President for stepping in and bringing all of us down to earth.

I am very happy that some of us have apologized for our " off the cuff" criticisms.
We are quiet truly,,,," Birds of a Feather" and we should all " stick together " !!!

On my very first gyro in 1984, my fore-aft stick travel was 6" !!!!!
It was built and designed by a Kurt Steel from the Ohio Chapter, he was a machinist and they built about 10 gyros all at the same time ,,,it was a club project thing back in 1982 or so.
I did not know at the time that Dr Bensen's design was that his fore-aft stick travel was closer to 12-14 inches of travel. As time progressed in my gyro experience, I later changed my stick travel to the more correct travel of 12-14 inches.
In my first year or so,,,I was spared my life by a higher authority because I actually flew my Bensen with the very " Pitch " sensitive stick travel!
Without any horizontal stab!
After I redesigned the travel to the more acceptable travel or 12-14 inches,,,,,man oh man was that a much welcomed improvement in pitch sensitivity!
So, anyone who has stepped on some feet,,,,we apologize,,,,,,I apologize,,,,and I know that us birds of a feather all apologize,,,,,,
Happy trails to all !!!!!

 

[GyroRon]

Just read this thread.

I don't know what people were REALLY thinking, but my guess is they saw a picture of a gyro that most people here would say, would be SAFER with a h Stab. My guess is some of those people don't know Ed and know he is a long time pilot with many hundreds if not thousands of hours, and is probably totally comfortable and experienced flying a stab less gyro.

News flash.... Almost any gyro out there can be flown quite successfully without a H stab.

Yes, its true!

The H stab just makes the gyro much smoother, and more stable in pitch. It makes it easier and smoother to fly in turbulence and makes it harder to over control the machine and PIO.

But it isn't a absolute must have to fly a gyro.

 

[halburn]

Hi Ron! Nice pics man

 

[Richard Anderson]

Years ago at some fly-in I saw a guy pulling his gyro from his trailer hooked to a motorhome and being full of myself commented that I'd rather fly to a fly-in. Being the perfect gentleman, he introduced himself as "Ed" and spent a few minutes talking about the fun of gyro flying and that he was an instructor. I'm sure he doesn't remember this moment, but I do.

 

[j bird]

I have no horse in this race but, I must make a comment, Paul Block was a 86 year old who had been flying gyro's 40+ years, he was a Aircore flight instr. during W.W.II, he was one of the original bunch down in Southern Cal. building and flying Bensen's & Brock's. Paul eventually moved to Oregon where he became a smoke jumper, I met him in 2004 at the decommissioned smoke jumper base in Cave Junction, OR. where he had a hanger, still flying his gyro without a stab, well to make a long story short, he was out flying around the airport when at around 100' AGL he nosed over. The gyro's tail was found near by, it had been chopped off by the rotor, nobody at the air port saw the initial blade strike but a lot of people heard the loud bang and saw it tumble out of the sky. I often wonder with all his flying hours, what happened that he lost control of the gyro and nose dived in, I also wonder if he had a stab on the gyro would it have prevented his accident.

 

[Wiplash]

Nice gyros Ed and Ron.

Ed what's going on with the linkage below the rotor head?

 

[BoneyM]

I thought the EA-81 had a different head on it like the picture of that of the one the Deadeye Jack has posted here...?

 

[ms80831]

it's been said before ... Aerodynamic stability is not an "opinion".
It is physics - period.

The fact that many have flown successfully minus an hs does not mean it is just as stable (or safe) as one with an hs.

That argument is akin to saying "you don't need seat belts" cause many have driven cars without them.

The point is ... You really don't need them ... until you do.

...

...

 

[Gyronaut]

Where is the 'like' button?