New RAF 2000 build

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
I have a panel question for all you smart folks out there. The RAF has very limited panel space. I will be using my iPad running ForeFlight with ADSB in and out, AHRS etc. If I use a regular size iPad i won’t have room for any analog instruments. I was planning on having a backup altimeter and airspeed indicator just in case, along with rotor and engine tach backup but it won’t fit with the full size iPad. I can probably fit it all if i use an iPad mini, but it will be harder to read being smaller. I’m using the MGL EMS so engine monitoring is all in one. Should I go full glass with the iPad and trust it or have a backup plan. If my iPad dies, I can always use my iPhone with ForeFlight as a back up.

Mike
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
17,178
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
I have a panel question for all you smart folks out there. The RAF has very limited panel space. I will be using my iPad running ForeFlight with ADSB in and out, AHRS etc. If I use a regular size iPad i won’t have room for any analog instruments. I was planning on having a backup altimeter and airspeed indicator just in case, along with rotor and engine tach backup but it won’t fit with the full size iPad. I can probably fit it all if i use an iPad mini, but it will be harder to read being smaller. I’m using the MGL EMS so engine monitoring is all in one. Should I go full glass with the iPad and trust it or have a backup plan. If my iPad dies, I can always use my iPhone with ForeFlight as a back up.

Mike
I am a steam gage enthusiast and if you train with me you will know how to use charts to plan and fly cross country.

I feel planning a cross country gyroplane flight is not the same as planning a flight in a fixed wing.

The Las Vegas Class B airspace is challenging and we will spend some time learning to manage it.

Using a Garmin 696; I nearly inadvertently entered the LAS Bravo and my current charts saved me.

I needed to be more diligent about updating my data base.

Apple devices may work better in your enclosed gyroplane.

I use a Garmin 496 as a backup for my chart navigation and it takes up very little panel space. I find the terrain warning feature helpful.

I had been spoiled by the size of a 696 and was surprised at how helpful the 496 is despite the small screen.

When I was designing a panel for another gyroplane I found it helpful to make a full size cardboard panel and glued full size pictures of the instruments, radio and transponder on it.

I could hold it at the proper distance and angle and imagine what each set up was like.

The primary flight instruments I need and use are; indicated air speed, altimeter and yaw string.

For pre-rotation and takeoff roll a rotor tachometer is useful.

When I was learning I found the vertical speed indicator useful and I continue to enjoy it.

Because of where you fly you will need a radio, transponder and ADS-B out.

ADS-B in is nice.

I tried using my iPhone for ADS-B in and it was not bright enough and overheated and shut down.

In my opinion using the iPhone for anything in my aircraft was a total failure and I may go to an aircraft specific screen like iFLY GPS) because I like the idea of ADS-B in. https://www.iflygps.com/Store/ads-b-transceivers-receivers
 

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
3,141
Location
Whitewater KS
Aircraft
Butterfly Aurora N5560Z / Titanium Explorer N456TE & N488TE/ - trained in MTOsport 446QT/488FB
Total Flight Time
936
I pad's & iPhones ARE problematic in aircraft ...where heat & sunlight on the screen can cause shut-downs!
I have loved the I Fly products ..since I first saw one on Kent Goddard's MTO ...during testing ...down at Anauhuac!
With aging eyesight, (& having to wear glasses to read) tiny screen things like little garmins on vibrating gyro -panels ...are too hard to read!
 

grevis

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
54
Location
Hamilton, New Zealand
Aircraft
Mosquito XE285, RAF2000(Building)
How about a photo of your cockpit now so we can throw some ideas at you. Maybe with a paper template on the dash with your current plan.
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
I am a steam gage enthusiast and if you train with me you will know how to use charts to plan and fly cross country.

I feel planning a cross country gyroplane flight is not the same as planning a flight in a fixed wing.

The Las Vegas Class B airspace is challenging and we will spend some time learning to manage it.

Using a Garmin 696; I nearly inadvertently entered the LAS Bravo and my current charts saved me.

I needed to be more diligent about updating my data base.

Apple devices may work better in your enclosed gyroplane.

I use a Garmin 496 as a backup for my chart navigation and it takes up very little panel space. I find the terrain warning feature helpful.

I had been spoiled by the size of a 696 and was surprised at how helpful the 496 is despite the small screen.

When I was designing a panel for another gyroplane I found it helpful to make a full size cardboard panel and glued full size pictures of the instruments, radio and transponder on it.

I could hold it at the proper distance and angle and imagine what each set up was like.

The primary flight instruments I need and use are; indicated air speed, altimeter and yaw string.

For pre-rotation and takeoff roll a rotor tachometer is useful.

When I was learning I found the vertical speed indicator useful and I continue to enjoy it.

Because of where you fly you will need a radio, transponder and ADS-B out.

ADS-B in is nice.

I tried using my iPhone for ADS-B in and it was not bright enough and overheated and shut down.

In my opinion using the iPhone for anything in my aircraft was a total failure and I may go to an aircraft specific screen like iFLY GPS) because I like the idea of ADS-B in. https://www.iflygps.com/Store/ads-b-transceivers-receivers
Hi Vance and thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with you on
I am a steam gage enthusiast and if you train with me you will know how to use charts to plan and fly cross country.

I feel planning a cross country gyroplane flight is not the same as planning a flight in a fixed wing.

The Las Vegas Class B airspace is challenging and we will spend some time learning to manage it.

Using a Garmin 696; I nearly inadvertently entered the LAS Bravo and my current charts saved me.

I needed to be more diligent about updating my data base.

Apple devices may work better in your enclosed gyroplane.

I use a Garmin 496 as a backup for my chart navigation and it takes up very little panel space. I find the terrain warning feature helpful.

I had been spoiled by the size of a 696 and was surprised at how helpful the 496 is despite the small screen.

When I was designing a panel for another gyroplane I found it helpful to make a full size cardboard panel and glued full size pictures of the instruments, radio and transponder on it.

I could hold it at the proper distance and angle and imagine what each set up was like.

The primary flight instruments I need and use are; indicated air speed, altimeter and yaw string.

For pre-rotation and takeoff roll a rotor tachometer is useful.

When I was learning I found the vertical speed indicator useful and I continue to enjoy it.

Because of where you fly you will need a radio, transponder and ADS-B out.

ADS-B in is nice.

I tried using my iPhone for ADS-B in and it was not bright enough and overheated and shut down.

In my opinion using the iPhone for anything in my aircraft was a total failure and I may go to an aircraft specific screen like iFLY GPS) because I like the idea of ADS-B in. https://www.iflygps.com/Store/ads-b-transceivers-receivers
Hey Vance and thanks for the thoughtful response. Fully agree that planning a cross country for a fixed wing and Gyro are different, and since I haven’t planned any in a while I fully expect us to use charts with you. It will certainly be a great refresher. Part 91 doesn’t require charts but I will always have a current chart in the aircraft. I do like steam gauges which is why I wanted to have some as a backup, but I know a lot of aircraft are strictly glass nowadays with no I’ll effects. Just a learning curve knowing your equipment. i have the full size panel supplied by RAF but the holes are cut for primary gauges. With the iPad I will have full flight information available including AHRS information. The EMS will show engine info including RRpm and ERPM.
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
I pad's & iPhones ARE problematic in aircraft ...where heat & sunlight on the screen can cause shut-downs!
I have loved the I Fly products ..since I first saw one on Kent Goddard's MTO ...during testing ...down at Anauhuac!
With aging eyesight, (& having to wear glasses to read) tiny screen things like little garmins on vibrating gyro -panels ...are too hard to read!
Hi Christine thanks for your response! Hope all is well! There is a panel mount for the iPad that used a fan on the back for cooling. Being an enclosed cabin, I am hoping that will mitigate most of the sunlight issues. I have SERIOUSLY looked at the iFly 740, but since I already have an iPad I wanted to try that option first before spending another $700. I have subscriptions for both iFly and Foreflight so I can use them both and compare in real life conditions.
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
How about a photo of your cockpit now so we can throw some ideas at you. Maybe with a paper template on the dash with your current plan.
That’s a good idea I will take the current panel and take some pictures this weekend. I like Vance’s idea of life size cutouts but not sure how to scale pictures perfectly.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
17,178
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Some instrument suppliers have full size pictures.

If they didn’t I would go to a print shop and keep scaling them up until they were the correct size.

Given how much time I would be spending looking at the panel I felt it was time well spent.

The Predator came with a nice panel and I keep finding new ways to get more into it.

Most recently I put the radio where the intercom was and moved the transponder and the encoder.
 

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grevis

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
54
Location
Hamilton, New Zealand
Aircraft
Mosquito XE285, RAF2000(Building)
Hi Mike, here is the layout I am trying. Might see an idea you can use. If you dont have the original trim wheel setup you have options for some sort of centre console/support. I am trying an electric/air trim so here I have a 2" box section that runs from the bottom edge of the console down to the original frame. I was hoping that if I wanted to use my tablet at some point (and not strap it to my leg like I do now) I would try making a clamp to go on here for it (as long as it can be clear of controls and peoples legs). It also provides a nice tidy path for wiring from the console.

The instruments are:
Engine and Rotor rpms on the top two
Radio and transponder at very left
VSI
Original RAF altitude
Original RAF airspeed
4 channel display that will do oil pressure, water temp, trim system pressure (im trying air trim) and system voltage
Original RAF fuel level
Original RAF compass

Gary


20220211_081403small.jpg
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Hi Mike, here is the layout I am trying. Might see an idea you can use. If you dont have the original trim wheel setup you have options for some sort of centre console/support. I am trying an electric/air trim so here I have a 2" box section that runs from the bottom edge of the console down to the original frame. I was hoping that if I wanted to use my tablet at some point (and not strap it to my leg like I do now) I would try making a clamp to go on here for it (as long as it can be clear of controls and peoples legs). It also provides a nice tidy path for wiring from the console.

The instruments are:
Engine and Rotor rpms on the top two
Radio and transponder at very left
VSI
Original RAF altitude
Original RAF airspeed
4 channel display that will do oil pressure, water temp, trim system pressure (im trying air trim) and system voltage
Original RAF fuel level
Original RAF compass

Gary


View attachment 1154024
I really like that supplemental brace you put in there Gary. Can you show me how it’s mounted please? That would be a great area for switches and stuff
 

grevis

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
54
Location
Hamilton, New Zealand
Aircraft
Mosquito XE285, RAF2000(Building)
Ok, ill try and get some close ups, but what I did was put a small piece of aluminum angle across the bottom of the dash to strengthen it, so that gave me an attachment point there. At the bottom end I used an original part of the trim wheel mount.
Gary
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Happy weekend all! Here is a photo of the first rendition of the panel. I was able to replicate most of the instruments to scale. I’m pretty happy with this as I was able to get all of the steam gauges on as well as the electronics. The VSI on the right side is not ideal as I’d like them all together but at least it fits. I could take out the rotor and engine tachs as they are on the EMS, and move the VSI to the left.
The round black circles are the holes for starter, headphones and toggle switches. Let me know what you think.

Mike
 

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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
17,178
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Good job Mike.

Which seat are you going to be flying from?

If you are going to fly from the left seat the EMS may be hard to read.

Earlier we talked about navigation by charts and way points and a vertical card compass helped me a lot.

I have yet to learn to use a whisky compass well.

A vertical card compass is typically mounted on top of the glare shield. Even a whisky compass is happier on the glare shield because there tend to be less magnetic interference from the panel electrics.

In your early days an engine tachometer will help you to be consistent particularly with power on landings and it will help you be kind to your pre-rotator clutch.

I would likely prioritize the tachometer over the Vertical Speed indicator.

Perhaps you could put the VSI where the whisky compass is now.

For a low time gyroplane pilot a vertical speed indicator has value. It generally lets you know when you have an altitude excursion sooner than the altimeter.

Flight instruments are typically well behind the sight picture and the aircraft.

Your goal will be to look outside and calibrate the sight picture with your flight instruments.

Your breakers and switches seem a little widely spaced to me.
 

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Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Good job Mike.

Which seat are you going to be flying from?

If you are going to fly from the left seat the EMS may be hard to read.

Earlier we talked about navigation by charts and way points and a vertical card compass helped me a lot.

I have yet to learn to use a whisky compass well.

A vertical card compass is typically mounted on top of the glare shield. Even a whisky compass is happier on the glare shield because there tend to be less magnetic interference from the panel electrics.

In your early days an engine tachometer will help you to be consistent particularly with power on landings and it will help you be kind to your pre-rotator clutch.

I would likely prioritize the tachometer over the Vertical Speed indicator.

Perhaps you could put the VSI where the whisky compass is now.

For a low time gyroplane pilot a vertical speed indicator has value. It generally lets you know when you have an altitude excursion sooner than the altimeter.

Flight instruments are typically well behind the sight picture and the aircraft.

Your goal will be to look outside and calibrate the sight picture with your flight instruments.

Your breakers and switches seem a little widely spaced to me.
Hi Vance and thank you for your input. This aircraft is a solo from the left seat only so yes, it will be the left. I think I’ve decided to go with a standard panel set up on the left and move the tachs to the right side. I have thought about a card compass. And yes, i agree the switches and fuses are very far apart which I planned to change but that’s how the original panel was set up.
 

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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
17,178
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Good morning Mike,

Some thought that came to me in the night:

I recommend you make a cardboard panel and install the instruments in it before making your final cut.

Some things in the panel take more room that it appears from the front.

You may find a need for reinforcement. That is what the pop rivets in my panel are for, they fasten aluminum angle to the back of the panel allowing my panel to be thinner and lighter.

Having a power buss bar (an actual copper bar) that all your circuit breakers attach to will make wiring the panel easier.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/cata...mKHtdHeQ1Y6wu7tfqu0a7HyhUQh16azxoC4ngQAvD_BwE

You can call me about any of this between nine am and nine pm Pacific time.
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Great idea Vance. I had some thoughts about that and will give you a ring
 

StanFoster

Active Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
17,025
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
1250
Mike.....I have not read but just a few posts in your nice RAF2000 build...
but.....let me stress to make sure you have the upgraded nosewheel spindle.
 

grevis

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
54
Location
Hamilton, New Zealand
Aircraft
Mosquito XE285, RAF2000(Building)
Another idea was looking at, instead of having the headset jack on the dash I have run cables to the seat back, with a couple of jacks at the top.

Gary
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Mike.....I have not read but just a few posts in your nice RAF2000 build...
but.....let me stress to make sure you have the upgraded nosewheel spindle.
Thanks Stan. That’s in the final plan but not just yet. Funds are not unlimited lol
 

Mike Leimetter

Mike Leimetter
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
98
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Aircraft
2005 RAF 2000 N999ML
Total Flight Time
10 gyro, 100 fw
Happy Sunday all! Was able to get the seatback mounted today along with refitting the fuel filters with proper mounting brackets. Looks good. I hope SOMEBODY was out flying today! I would have been. 70 and no wind here in Vegas! Have an awesome weekend!

Mike
 

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