New chinese engine

jm-urbani

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Hi Vance , I am happy that you are happy with your ligth and fuel efficient old engine really
 

Doug Riley

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Waspair: OK, touche regarding the reliability of McCulloch engines and their kin. But, but...

The departures from quality control in products from Red China feel like malice aforethought. Toxic toothpaste? Really? I generally don't get the same case of the willies about Euro-American-Japanese goods.

McCullochs, VWs and Subarus at least appear to have been honestly designed to meet the needs of the people who originally ordered them. If we "adapt" them to some other needs, we at least know that these engines complied with certain original specifications. If we modify them to meet other needs, we start from known initial conditions. E.g. the Mac has a design life expectancy of one hour, the VW was designed around a continuous power output of maybe 35% of max, etc. All were designed using 1940's metallurgy, casting and forging technologies. It's a place to start.

With Chinese stuff, the product is apt to be spectacularly unsuited even for its original purpose. It's hard to locate a baseline.
 

chrisk

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China can produce top quality items that compete with the best of them. Have some doubts, google worlds fastest super computer. Guess what, its in China. The problem with China is there is a substantial amount of crap that is passed off as a quality product. The buyer has to be savvy enough to know the difference.
 

jm-urbani

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I think that anyway no sport engine maker will start a real engine research to make an engine to be used for the next 50 years when in max 20 years internal combustion engine will disapear
 

Jean - Claude

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jm-urbani;n1125720 said:
I think that anyway no sport engine maker will start a real engine research to make an engine to be used for the next 50 years when in max 20 years internal combustion engine will disapear
How will we produce more clean electrical power? How to make the carbon footprint of an electric vehicle battery not be an ecological disaster? How to ensure that recycling a battery is not an ecological disaster? How to find enough rare raw material to make the cells and chemistry of the batteries in the long term? Who is today asking the question broadly enough from a societal point of view to take account of all these parameters? This is Carlos Tavares, general manager of PSA-Peugeot-Citroën's cars warning about electromobility.
 

ckurz7000

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Storing electricity in batteries is a viable option where effiency is the topmost priority and weight/volume/endurance is not. That doesn't sound like battery powered aircraft will be commonplace any time soon.

However, hydrogen in combination with fuel cells might very well be. Hydrogen has an energy density of 142 MJ/kg whereas gasoline only offers 46 MJ/kg. The weight of the tank to safely contain hydrogen compressed at 700 bar needs to be factored in, however. The engine itself will be fully electric, so no internal combustion engine with its notorious ramshackle of moving parts and maintenance requirements.

I would expect that within about 10 years we will not be surprised anymore to meet hydrogen powered aircraft.

Greetings, -- Chris.
 

eutrophicated1

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ckurz7000;n1125734 said:
Storing electricity in batteries is a viable option where effiency is the topmost priority and weight/volume/endurance is not. That doesn't sound like battery powered aircraft will be commonplace any time soon.
However, hydrogen in combination with fuel cells might very well be. Hydrogen has an energy density of 142 MJ/kg whereas gasoline only offers 46 MJ/kg. The weight of the tank to safely contain hydrogen compressed at 700 bar needs to be factored in, however. The engine itself will be fully electric, so no internal combustion engine with its notorious ramshackle of moving parts and maintenance requirements.
I would expect that within about 10 years we will not be surprised anymore to meet hydrogen powered aircraft.
Hi, Chris:

Here's the state of the business update having to do with fuel cells, where, in Michigan they've been under development for over 20 years:

O.K. here we go. For all you acronym using enthusiats:
I totally agree, except that the weight factor must also include a massive PEM based fuel cell, that must include some sort of pre-heating of the fuel supply, as well as the cell, itself. Winter time usage greatly increases the need for this. Also there is the need to "pressure charge the PEM cell" to make it more effecient. Now, hi pressure fuel tanks are not the most efficient way to store H2. NiMH powder adsorbs H2 at up to 2.5 times its own weight, which could bring a gyro powered in such a way up to the range of gasoline powered gyros. I quote the master aircraft manufacturer, Carl Goldberg: "You will not appreciated how good a given design is, until you try to make it better". So, onto more problems to overcome, PEM's are not maintenance-free devices, because they get clogged up from the ambient air being forced into them; these are REDOX devices after all. So the PEM's have to be cleaned out on a regular basis (probably have to be rebuilt; the membrane stack degrades from life in the open air ). We trade one set of issues we have with ICE's for another, possible larger set. For example, where's the H2 gonna come from, gonna produce it ourselves? Remember, since the most popular H2 source is H2O, we now have to pass the acquired H2 through dryers, and the process of getting fuel is further complicated with having to store it in more of those expensive NiMH filled 2000PSI canisters. The hi pressure is needed to force the H2 to adsorb into the NiMH.

On a positive note, I do know of one case where an enterprising man has powered his Corvette in just this way; of course there is no trunk space. He also had to acquire significant amounts of fissionable nuclear material to supply the energy needed to drive this whole process. Good thing he lives in the desert.

So the 10 years needed to bring this technology to market has already been 20. So, I am convinced that "Vance" was even more correct when he said that many new powerplant designs have come and gone over the years at Oshgosh. The financial will required to overcome all the obstacles just isn't there.
 

eutrophicated1

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chrisk;n1125712 said:
China can produce top quality items that compete with the best of them. Have some doubts, google worlds fastest super computer. Guess what, its in China. The problem with China is there is a substantial amount of crap that is passed off as a quality product. The buyer has to be savvy enough to know the difference.
"HHHhhhhhhhmmmmmm" wonder where they stole that design? IBM, CRAY, NCR? BTW, supercomputer is a generic term. Super for what? The IBM 3090 is still the best overall business computer, because it has 256 independent I/O channels, so more users, more disk access, it isn't only about the MIPS, or Tflops.
 

JohnAJohnson

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Russia hasn't been red for almost 30 years but during the USSR years, Russian products seriously lacked quality. The Chinese are slowly moving toward an economy that rewards quality, but make no mistake - the worker pouring his heart into a product and receiving less compensation as the guy next to him getting a raise for ordering cheaper, inferior crankshaft steel will not stick to his principles forever. I have been appalled by some of the junk coming out of China in the last 20 years, and while I'm willing to pay less for a new Chinese made computer or washing machine, knowing they will probably need to be replaced in a few years, I'm not ready to roll the dice on something that can kill me and my pax.

Steve_UK;n1125581 said:
""Not sure I'd trust my life to anything technical, created by the Reds.""

Thankfully your NASA astronauts take a different view as they soley rely on our friends in Russia ""................until another US manned spacecraft is ready, crews will travel to and from the International Space Station (ISS) exclusively aboard the Russian Soyuz spacecraft.""


Plenty of your SOG guys enjoying flying US operated Russian built Mil Mi-17s in hot sandy places today too.
 

dinoa

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With any engine you wait and see. Rotax and even Lycoming are still coming out with some hefty ADs.If over time they can get it right, here's to them.
 

eutrophicated1

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An interesting side light is that Ford has been supplying those specialty trucks that run in the big passenger airports for over 20 years. I've been told that they put slightly modified internal combustion engines in them, so they can use pure Hydrogen as fuel. It turns out that stellite valves and valve seats are about the only difference between those engines, and the ones running on propane tanks. Since they're only running baggage trains back and forth short distances, they've used the Hi-pressure tanks, instead of those "nickel-Metal-Hydride" filled cylinders. It really isn't a big deal to run hydrogen through ICE's, and I don't fore see the demise of them for a long time. Plus they do eliminate petrochemical emissions right now.

Ballard company has been selling small 1-5 kilowatt fuel cells to the public for 5 years or so, for in home electrical generation. They've been very pricey, as you might imagine, I imagine some welding supply places sell tanks of hi-pressure H2 that would work in those fuel cells, since its not a weight sensitive application.

One note of relative safety bears mentioning; H2 is far safer a fuel to burn in vehicles and houses, because, being so much lighter than air(where propane and natural gass is heavier) H2 dissipates up through ceilings in a room where a leak might occur.

The downside of shifting fuel source to H2 is having to buy hydrolysis generators and piping and dryers and managing the NiMH adsorbtion with 2000psi pumps. Of course the H2 pressure reduces to 160psi, once adsorbed, so the tank isn't a bomb, waiting to go off.

I would imagine that running a gyro off pulsed direct current motors would be a lot smoother and quieter. Frame design could take a whole new direction, having fuel tanks be structural members.
 

jm-urbani

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Jean - Claude;n1125725 said:
How will we produce more clean electrical power? How to make the carbon footprint of an electric vehicle battery not be an ecological disaster? How to ensure that recycling a battery is not an ecological disaster? How to find enough rare raw material to make the cells and chemistry of the batteries in the long term? Who is today asking the question broadly enough from a societal point of view to take account of all these parameters? This is Carlos Tavares, general manager of PSA-Peugeot-Citroën's cars warning about electromobility.
Carlos Tavares's group PSA (one of the french car builders) states it is involved in electric car given the end of the petrop engines:

https://www.groupe-psa.com/fr/actualites/tagged/voiture-electrique/

it is said that given the decline of internal combustion engine, PSA group and dong feng engines are creating a "plateform" (joint venture I think) in order to make an electric car that one could recharge quickly ( 12 km per minute of charge)
 

ckurz7000

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That kind of charging rate is already available today. At a quick charging station a Tesla will charge to 80% range in about 20 minutes. If range is about 350 km, this equals to about 14 km per minute charging time.

-- Chris.
 

jm-urbani

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they are reinventing the wheel so hahaha
I have a C evolution bmw bike, before that I had ridden a vectrix for 6 years, I we not go back to a petrol bike
 

eutrophicated1

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I applaud Elon Musk, and the State of California, for their hi-risk energy shift to low-polluting, renewable energy sources. That shift practically bankrupted the state at the time, because they also had to build a whole new distribution network( grid ). And I doubt that Elon has seen the first penny of net profit out of his Telsa venture. He has also helped cause the acceleration of the rechargeable battery research revolution. Its a shame the billions of dollars invested into the so-called fusion research efforts (which is still as far as it ever was 50 years ago from fruition) wasn't put into "proton-exchange-membrane" fuel cell research. If the airborne wind electrical generation development got only 10% of our military budget for 5 years, we could be an energy independent planet.

In 1964 I worked at a 'little-known' chemical plant in East Chicago, Indiana called Linde Crystal Company. We made artificial saphires, white ones, red ones(rubies), green ones(emeralds), blue ones(when cut into chunks and ground "star saphires") and yellow ones. The whole process was predicated on the need to melt saphire powder(aluminum oxide) onto a seed crystal, using oxy-hydrogen torches. You see, the only end products that come from such a torch is: heat and water. No CO2. The crystals had to be that pure. Electrolysis of most water sources(but seawater was best) makes pure O2 and H2, with a little water vapor. What better way to store a non-polluting energy source? Pure hydrogen does not burn; put it into an evacuated tank. The oxygen comes out one electrode, and the hydrogen comes out the other. Just let the oxygen go into the atmosphere.

The big issue is, however, you need a lot of electricity to do electrolysis. My question is: does it take more electricity to store power into batteries than it does to put it into hyrdrogen storage tanks? I don't think so. NASA has used closed cycle fuel cells, for energy and water, for our astronauts in space, going on 5 decades now.
 

eutrophicated1

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So now I submit, if we can utilize airborne wind electrical generation to make pure H2, we can have sufficient power for transportation, communication, heat and light, for everyone. You see we've already done the developement needed to kit-make our own generators. Mikani has done it for 30kw power generation 4 years ago. Hello.

Want to know who's helping stop it in its tracks? AOPA. Influencing FAA. Who's shooting whom in the foot here?
 

eutrophicated1

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Relatively inexpensive hi-output Direct Current model airplane motors from Japan can do the work. All that was needed were the "motorized Kite designs" and the digital controls with software to guide them autonomously. There is enough continuous wind at/or above 1500 feet to run these things.
 

eutrophicated1

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We don't really need batteries. Fuel cells are very scalable, below 10kw right now. Need a really good fresh water supply? Fuel cells can be run in both directions. Is it really going to be all about what lobby wins in D.C.? Is it only about 'lack-of-current-information' ? What're we going to do the next time someone hollers "fuel shortage" ?
 

ligun

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eutrophicated1;n1125624 said:
Not sure the Red Chinese actually "reverse engineered" anything about that engine. That is to say, did they actually do a chemical analysis of the crankshaft, camshaft, valves, cylinders, heads, valve seats, valve springs, timing gears, and the assorted bolts, connecting rods, piston rings(each) and wrist pins. Each of these parts has a different metallurgical history of manufacture. I've made steel in the mills of Indiana; I know how complex the process and chemistry is. And I seriously doubt much, if any true reverse engineering was done on the Rotax engines. Having worked in all facets of the IT business for 25 years, believe me, if the Red Chinese want to co-opt a technology, they'll just steal it, like they did Microsoft Windows. And they won't care a whit, how many shortcuts they'll have to take, so long as it "looks similar" to the original.

I've worked with the mechanical engineers at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler Corporations, and I've heard how the Red Chinese manipulated their way into getting the technology they needed to make semi-decent automotive engines, engines they couldn't make on their own. Their manufacturing processes were the worst. Their cars still are among the poorest quality in the world.

Yes, Rotax could use some competition; and I invite you all in the free world to become that competition. Some say that the Rotax engines are an outdated design, that there could be newer ones that would be better. I've studied engine design for 50 years, and know that nothing really new comes up very often, mechanically speaking. The main advancements have been due to newer information in the materials sciences. If you want to see advancements, look to super-car, or formula 1 development, where extreme cost is not an issue. The mechanics are such that the inline 6 cylinder engine is still the most inherently in balance. The 1929 Lagonda V12 is still one of the smoothest-running engines ever made. The spark plug wires could be routed 2 completely different ways, and still you could put a glass of water on it without spilling any.

You want better engines? Simply replace the cam-driven, coil spring actuated valve trains with ECU controlled hydraullicly actuated valves.



….I've worked with the mechanical engineers at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler Corporations…

I suspect you are somehow misinformed about the automotive industries in China. China’s automotive market is now the largest in the world.

http://media.gm.com/media/cn/en/gm/company.html

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fap/cn/en.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/chinese-automaker-buying-detroit-s-fiat-chrysler-n792541

Regards

Ligun
 
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