New Air Command Owner

NoWingsAttached

Unobtainium Member
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
4,871
Location
Columbia, SC
Aircraft
Air Command Tandem w/ Arrow 100hp; GyroBee w/ Hirth 65hp; Air Command Tandem w/ Yamaha 150hp
Total Flight Time
>350
Wow, what a beaut! Love this gyro!
 

CLS447

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
6,321
Location
Reading, PA
Aircraft
Air Command 503 & Air Command SxS /EJ2.5
Total Flight Time
Aprox 400 gyro
Air Command Pics

Air Command Pics

Is this machine deadly ??? (Just look at that HTL !!!!)

After all these years ......I am more in love with her every day !

Unlike cars & bikes & jet skis & Quads & most anything else.........she flies ! & flies well ! It's an amazing thing & the thing that I want to do for as long as I can do it !!!
 

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Timchick

Tim Chick
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
10,890
Location
Panama City, Florida
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex, 582 Greyhead
Total Flight Time
~30
Chris, I'd say Yes. You've developed the skills necessary to stay ahead of it. Some haven't been so lucky. For a newbie it's like playing Russian roulette.
 

LARRYEBOYER

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
1,250
Location
READING, PA
Gentlemen!!! I am glad Art is in such good hands. He has purchased one of the nicest well equiped Air Commands on the planet. It is in perfect condition and it flys like it. I am experienced enough to say the only overhaul this machine needs is the reputation of a low rider. I have flown it in calm to windy conditions and it flys like a good stable gyro should fly without pitchyness. The stick is soft would be my only complaint. You barely feel it in your hand and a turn is effortless.The 25ft rotors really lift the bird and landings are soft and 0 roll done properly. I enjoyed owning this machine and getting it ready to fly. I owned an AC as my first gyro but the forum scared me into changing it into centerline config. Now having owned and flown the low rider, I don't see much difference if any in stability and it is so easy to get into and what a fine machine to scoot around in! Take care of Art and he will undoubtedly become another gyronaught, Best of luck ART!!!
 

gyro

minigun man
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
1,260
Location
Oh
Aircraft
Quicksilver Sport 2S, Quicksilver MX, Team Hi-max, Heath Parasol TG, AC gyro single & tandem
Total Flight Time
600
Gentlemen!!! I am glad Art is in such good hands. He has purchased one of the nicest well equiped Air Commands on the planet. It is in perfect condition and it flys like it. I am experienced enough to say the only overhaul this machine needs is the reputation of a low rider. I have flown it in calm to windy conditions and it flys like a good stable gyro should fly without pitchyness. The stick is soft would be my only complaint. You barely feel it in your hand and a turn is effortless.The 25ft rotors really lift the bird and landings are soft and 0 roll done properly. I enjoyed owning this machine and getting it ready to fly. I owned an AC as my first gyro but the forum scared me into changing it into centerline config. Now having owned and flown the low rider, I don't see much difference if any in stability and it is so easy to get into and what a fine machine to scoot around in! Take care of Art and he will undoubtedly become another gyronaught, Best of luck ART!!!

Ditto....the only reason I converted mine is I that I thought I would have a hard time selling it as HTL.

Loved the ol AC just a Dennis designed it.

I saw you machine on Barnstormers and I wanted to buy it as I just sold my QS S2.....but we may be moving soon and wanted to wait and see what happens. perhaps when I'm ready I hope to find a machine just as nice!
 

Midget 1

Newbie
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
37
Location
Palm Bay, Fl
Aircraft
Fusioncopter JK-2 Nano
Total Flight Time
1900
This is Art. I have read alot of posts but resisted putting my own thoughts out as I have no credibility with this sport. But I wish to tell all we care to know how much I appreciate the concern and support from so many we do not know me. A special thanks to Larry Boyer for his honest and fair dealing with me and to Chis for his help and enthusiam. The bird got home in one piece; now going throught complete and careful scrutiny. Will train at Whachula in Nov; looking forward to that first flight. Will post those events with photos.
 

CLS447

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
6,321
Location
Reading, PA
Aircraft
Air Command 503 & Air Command SxS /EJ2.5
Total Flight Time
Aprox 400 gyro
Hey Art ! Glad to hear everything went well.

You go ahead & post any & all thoughts you have ! Also please let us know how the inspection goes.

Please let us know what your plans are for her. Best of luck !
 

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PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,572
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
This is Art...I appreciate the concern and support from so many we do not know me...

Art, it's great to see your attitude about this. As you might imagine, it's very hard to suggest to anyone who's bought a machine this beautiful that it might present risks. I have very limited experience flying gyroplanes, but I have considerable experience studying NTSB reports, and one thing that jumps out is that fixed-wing background combined with this machine's configuration shows up in a lot of accidents. It's counterintuitive to think that a different kind of flying experience could actually make you less safe when you get into a gyro for the first time, but it's a documented issue.

There are instructors in your region who can help you through this, and there may be a few minor tweaks to the machine which can make a significant improvement in safety. One bit of low-hanging fruit may be extending the tail farther back on a keel extention, as appears to have been done on the machine in post #22, but not yet on yours. A longer arm on the horizontal stabilizer can make a meaningful improvement.
 
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StanFoster

Active Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
16,967
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
1250
My Air Command was like this and I did have the extended tail. It flew great and I would never have changed athing if I still had it. I still think its a cool gyro. Stan
 

DennisFetters

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
3,321
Location
Abu Dhabi UAE
Aircraft
582 Commander Elite
Total Flight Time
Stopped counting years ago after 5,000
The facts, not fiction

The facts, not fiction

I'm very happy to see some of you being brave enough now to tell the real facts behind how well a Commander fly's as it was designed. It's about time.

The accident history of the Commander was brought up here, so let's just look again at the FACTS that I posted here long ago. Also, I do not know of any of these Commanders that were listed in the accidents below were the Commander Elite's with the pod and horizontal stabilizer. I believe they were all open framed, but never the less, all being flown in a compromised state with inadequately trained people, or people pushing beyond their abilities as a pilot. It does not matter what these people would have been flying, under the same conditions they all would have crashed:

***********************

Over many years, there have been people inside and outside of the forum that have been spreading misleading information concerning the accent rate of the Air Command gyroplanes. They throw numbers around without the facts behind them, intentionally trying to mislead people into a false conclusion that the Commander gyroplanes were dangerous and deadly to anyone flying them. When people do this, they are misleading you, in fact, it’s the same as lying to you.

What do you think about a person that is trying to intentionally mislead you by not presenting the full facts? I won’t ever stand for it, and why should you? If these people have mislead you all these years about one thing, then what else have they not been completely honest about?

In my constant effort to correct history, I have went through every listed death involved in a Commander gyroplane on the FAA data base, and created a summarized report as to the pertinent information involved in each of the 25 cases listed, and the circumstances behind as to why the pilot crashed. After all, there is a big difference between an aircraft that crashes due to poor flying characteristics, and aircraft that were flown by unqualified people with inadequate training, or even no training at all.

This reports shows the following pertinent information of the pilots competence level, and it forms an unquestionable pattern that none of these 25 events were the fault of the aircraft whatsoever, and all could have been avoided if just basic gyroplane trading would have been completed, except in two cases where the pilots crashed during incapacitation from heart attacks, and one case where the pilot was incapacitated from ice buildup over his eyes and face.

I typed this report by hand, so if anyone finds an error, or knows of other accidents that can be added, or can add additional information to any of these events, please contact me. Here is a summery breakdown of the pilot competence in the 25 reports;

How many of the pilots were Rotorcraft Rated:................None
How many of the pilots are confirmed no training:.............7of 25
How many of the pilots may not have had training:...........10 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 1 hours training:......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 2 hours training;......3 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 3 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 5 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 6 hours training;......2 of 25
How many of the pilots had less than 8 hours training;......1 of 25
How many of the pilots had more than 8 hours training;.....0 of 25
How many of the pilots were killed for other reasons;........3 of 25

The highest time pilot had 23 total hours in type, and was killed showing off beyond his ability during a sales demonstration. This list indicates that as many as 17 out of these 25 pilots probably didn't have any training.

As you can see, the pattern is clear. None of these people had enough training, or no training at all. It would not have mattered if they were flying a HCLT or CLT, they simply did not have enough experience to be flying any type of rotorcraft. I have looked at the few accident reports out of the U.K and Italy, and all fall into the same category as above.

An important factor is to remember when I owned Air Command; we were selling 97% of all gyroplanes being manufactured at the time, which was also an 80% increase of gyroplanes being put into the realm of aviation. It was only natural that the gyroplane accident rate would rise with this 80% increase of gyroplane activity, and accidents had greater odds of being a Commander simply due to our overwhelming dominance of the market.

Today’s gyroplane accident rate had decreased mainly due to around an 85% decrease of gyroplane activity since I left the market.

For those that require the full account of each event listed, you can go the following FAA link and search with the date and location: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

I know that to some people these inconvenient facts go against what they want to believe about the Commander Gyroplane, but more importantly, they go against what they want YOU to believe about the Commander Gyroplane. But facts are facts, and reasonable people will see that.

Air Command FAA Accident Analysis Summery Report;

Report #1;
Name:.....................Joseph R. Benjamin
Date:......................06/26/2005
Location:.................Highgate, VT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...First flight.
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #2;
Name:.....................Arthur Vernon Close
Date:......................12/03/2004
Location:.................Wilmont, OH
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...UNKNOWN
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to avoid power lines.


Report #3;
Name:.....................James F. Gear
Date:......................01/01/2003
Location:.................Lansing, IL
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..UNKNOWN
Winds:....................16 gusts to 21
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
.............................accident was the wind gusts.

Tom Milton added: I witnessed this fatality. The pilot had recently soloed himself, on a very calm day, without his instructor's consent. The fatality occurred at our club's Polar Bear event on Jan 1st. He claimed he had no intention of flying and was going to taxi his gyro down to the party. With his seatbelt and helmet unfastened, he took of on a very gusty day and was dead within seconds.


Report #4;
Name:.....................Anthony Spagnoletti
Date:......................09/12/1999
Location:.................Conroe, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................582 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:.10 (Not flown one year prior to accident)
Winds:...................Calm
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I believe the brother of the accident pilot is a member of this forum.


Report #5;
Name:.....................Gary Falen
Date:......................06/12/1994
Location:.................Georgetown, OH
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..8
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident: ....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #6;
Name:.....................John Rains
Date:......................09/26/1992
Location:.................Eureka, CA
Killed:......................2
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........2
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................5
Cause of Accident: .....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #7;
Name:.....................Barney Schmidt
Date:......................08/29/1992
Location:.................Dumas, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.2
Winds:...................5
Cause of Accident:...Pilot's failure to acquire proper training. Factor to the
............................accident was 6600 density altitude.


Report #8;
Name:.....................Royce R. Rutter
Date:......................05/31/1992
Location:.................Washburn, IA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...7
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #9;
Name:.....................Garry A. Lindsey
Date:......................08/04/1991
Location:.................Libby, MT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...NONE (First flight)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #10;
Name:.....................Donald R. Lee
Date:......................07/13/1991
Location:.................Quitman, MS
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................3
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #11;
Name:.....................Charles R. May
Date:......................01/15/1991
Location:.................Tomahawk, WI
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....UNKNOWN
Training Time:..........NONE
Total Hours in Type:.12
Winds:...................2
Cause of Accident:...Factor to the accident pilot loss of control, had no
............................goggles and had ¼” of ice buildup over his eyes and
............................face after ground impact.

Tom Milton added: I spoke to a customer of mine that witnessed this accident. It's true about the icing. It was one of his first actual flights in the gyro.


Report #12;
Name:.....................Robert Lewis Demarco
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................Okeechobee, FL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........15 minutes
Total Hours in Type:..1
Winds: Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #13;
Name:.....................Carl E. Hittle
Date:......................04/07/1990
Location:.................El Paso, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........2
Total Hours in Type:..2.1 (First flight solo, not flown 6 months after training)
Winds:....................6
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #14;
Name:.....................Guerra Oscar J, Jr.
Date:......................02/17/1990
Location:.................Hearne, TX
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........6.5
Total Hours in Type:..7 (First solo flight)
Winds:....................Calm
Cause of Accident:....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:I witnessed this fatality at the PRA convention, as did many others. This accident helped lead to the P.A.S.S. card system at the PRA conventions.


Report #15;
Name:.....................Julian A. Sheimo
Date:......................01/22/1990
Location:.................Munster, IN
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..13
Winds:....................12
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability.

Tom Milton added: This was only his second pattern after 2 or 3 runway passes. His instructor, John Potter, told him NOT to leave the runway. He wasn't ready for a pattern.


Report #16;
Name:.....................Preston E. Stanger
Date:......................01/11/1990
Location:.................Hansen, ID
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..23
Winds:....................8
Cause of Accident:....Pilot making advanced maneuvers showing off beyond
.............................his ability for sales demo flight, made abrupt right turn
.............................to low and impacted ground.


Report #17;
Name:.....................William E. Fifer
Date:......................11/13/1988
Location:.................Sullivan, IL
Killed:......................1
Type:......................503 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........6
Total Hours in Type:...6 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added: I talked to a family member who told me that the pilot wasn't comfortable flying a gyro yet. He decided to "try it" solo.


Report #18;
Name:.....................William A. Cameron
Date:......................10/14/1988
Location:.................Hixson, TN
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...4 (First flight solo, not flown 4 months after training)
Winds:.....................Calm
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #19;
Name:.....................Robert M. Heibel
Date:......................09/21/1988
Location:.................Cottage Grove, WI
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Two-Place SXS
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........3
Total Hours in Type:...8
Winds:.....................8
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and pilots
..............................failure to meet the manufacturers requirement to have
..............................a minimum of 50 hours in type before attempt to fly
..............................532 Commander Two-Place solo.

Tom Milton added: If I remember correctly, the accident pilot had only a pattern or two of dual in this machine with an instructor that had only flown an A&S 18-A. I believe this crash was on his first solo and without his instructors permission. A customer of mine witnessed this accident.


Report #20;
Name:.....................Robert L. Glens
Date:......................07/23/1988
Location:.................Baytown, TX
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds: 4
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.


Report #21;
Name:.....................Jerome Lamb
Date:......................11/04/1987
Location:.................Meriden, CT
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........8
Total Hours in Type:...9
Winds:.....................9
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and failure to
..............................control aircraft.

Tom Milton added: Jerome was a great guy but didn't want to come all the way back to Lansing for more training. (I don't think he had anywhere near the 8 hours listed, maybe 1 or 2)He had a local gyro pilot that was going to "watch him" and guide him through. According to a witness that I talked to, his local guy was late and Jerry decided to fly the runway, he "over ran his blades" and rolled into the ground on rotation.


Report #22;
Name:.....................John L. Watts, SR.
Date:......................07/27/1987
Location:.................Davenport, IA
Killed;......................1
Type:......................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...13
Winds:.....................18 gusting to 26
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training, and flying in
..............................high winds beyond his ability.

Tom Milton added: Watts was another great guy. John had free training with his purchase. Sadly, John was having a real bad time over-controlling the gyro. He was supposed to come back and fly with our CFI some more,(a forum member) but decided to try it at home. I talked to an eyewitness who described severe over-controlling and bunt. I really doubt this training time as well. I think he only flew with us for 2 afternoons (John, do you recall?)


Report #23;
Name:.....................Kenneth Ray Crews
Date:......................06/28/1987
Location:.................St. Francisville, LA
Killed:......................1
Type:......................532 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:...21
Winds:.....................7
Cause of Accident:.....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


Report #24;
Name:.....................David P. Langr
Date:......................05/15/1988
Location:.................Dodge Center
Killed:......................1
Type:......................447 Commander
Rotorcraft Rating:......NONE
Training Time:...........NONE
Total Hours in Type:...5
Winds:.....................12
Cause of Accident:.....Pilot's failure to acquire proper training.

Tom Milton added:David got only enough dual to give him the urge to try it alone. His dual was free, but he never came back for the rest of his training. David called me the day before his fatal accident and told me he was flying and doing wing-overs. I encouraged him to come back for more free lessons and not to fly. The next day his hangar partner called to tell me he died doing a wing-over.


Report #25;
Name:.....................Wilter C. Samuels
Date:......................02/01/1987
Location:.................Paducah. KY
Killed:.....................1
Type:.....................532 Commander Elite
Rotorcraft Rating:.....NONE
Training Time:..........UNKNOWN
Total Hours in Type:..5
Winds:....................7
Cause of Accident:....Suffered heart attack during flight, and lost control.


There were five deaths in Commanders in the UK, and all five were being flown by people with no more than 5 hours of training, and then on very windy days. They all fit right in with the US accident report, right down the line. No training, or not enough, and flying in conditions exceeding their abilities. Also one death in New Zealand, where the pilot had a heart attack and crashed afterwords.

I have always been very upfront about the dangers involved with maintaining, flying and obtaining proper training. Attached here is some of the warnings that was in my assembly manuals. I have always made proper training a top priority, as you can see. Even though, people would still ignore even the harshest of warnings and the result is an accident or one waiting to happen.

There is much more to flying than learning to control an aircraft. Training is not just to show you how to control the vehicle; it is also about learning how the vehicle works, and why it works. Training is also to teach you to safely operate within the aviation community with other aircraft. It is an essential part of safe flying, and necessary for every type of aircraft.

Remember; Man is a two dimensional creature, while flying is a three dimensional task, of which man must learn.
 

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animal

Platinum Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
5,933
Location
Deleon Springs Florida.
Aircraft
Hillman Hornet N8063D
Well all I can say,is the First Gyro I ever took the controls of,was Ed adlerfers Side x Side Aircommand that had an EA-81 with redrive on it. it had a Horz. stab on an extended tail, and to me it flew rock solid the few times I got to fly it .I had no issued with PIO like I did flying the RAF-2000,and I would in fact take one like Ed's in trade for my Commuter in a heart beat.

here is a pic of how Ed-s Gyro was when I flew in it, and one of how it is today,I bet with that parham stab on it now, it is rock steady. since the Parham stab was one of the first I know of to really tame the RAF-2000

I had contacted Ed about buying this machine,but he did not want to let it go with the paper work. so I had to pass.
 

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barnstorm2

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
14,572
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Aircraft
2-place Air Command CLT SxS (project), & Twinstarr Autogyro
Total Flight Time
750+hrs and climbing
we may be moving soon and wanted to wait and see what happens. perhaps when I'm ready I hope to find a machine just as nice!

Where are you moving to??

Hopefully, closer to Cincinnati! ;)


I have flown it in calm to windy conditions and it flys like a good stable gyro should fly without pitchyness.

I enjoyed owning this machine and getting it ready to fly.

No disrespect Larry, but unless you do a pitch stability test like the one devised by Greg Gremminger / C.Beaty then you just don't know.

Highly experienced HTL pilots are the last people you would want an opinion from on this issue as they have trained themselves to pitch compensate unconsciously.

I would love to fly this puppy as is!
What a great aircraft.
If you have never flown an AC you should never ever comment about how they fly!

I guess that means I get to comment!

These little single place AC's are wonderfully fun to fly. I found mine to be mind-boggling nimble and responsive.

I am VERY glad to see that this machine has an HStab or I would strongly recommend installing one before flying it.

My single place AC had the short keel and HStab and it WAS pitch unstable.

I don't think this is the ideal machine for a beginner but certainly far better then some other machines.

I would not recommend using the ext. tanks for the first 100hrs or so.

I owned an AC as my first gyro but the forum scared me into changing it into centerline config. Now having owned and flown the low rider, I don't see much difference if any in stability ...

One of the mis-conceptions I see posted in this thread is that doing a CLT upgrade will somehow make the machine more stable and fly differently.

You can have stable machines that are CLT and HTL.

This shows a lack of understanding of the issue.

CLT keeps you from dying in a PPO. PERIOD.

CLT does not guarantee in any way that your machine is stable or will fly better or worse.


------------------------------------------------
CLT does NOT make a gyro stable.

HStabs do not (appreciably) change the thrust line to CG offset.
------------------------------------------------


Effective HStabs are a GREAT way to make gyros stable. Stable gyros rarely PPO.

CLT gyros can not PPO.

Poorly trained pilots can kill themselves with the very best designed gyros.

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Dennis shows us very well what the dangers of an untrained pilot are.

We can also see that some of these pilots died in PPOs. Had these pilots been flying CLT machines they would not have died in PPOs. However, CLT machines were not readily available at this time.

From the text it looks like some these pilots were foolish enough to likely kill themselves in some other way if the PPO had not gotten them first.

This machine as configured is very likely capable of doing a PPO. You would have to TEST it to confirm this, not listen to anecdotal stories from pilots (like me).

I would not be doing very aggressive maneuvers in a machine that can PPO.

If you have an extended keel with an Hstab and flew the machine non aggressively, only after good training with a solo sign-off from a competent instructor, I would say that you have mitigated your risks significantly.

However, I would keep in mind that if you want a PPO PROOF machine you will have to TEST the machine and likely convert to a less aggressive thrust line offset.


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StanFoster

Active Member
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Nov 16, 2003
Messages
16,967
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
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I had no experience with a HTL gyro when I started flying my Air Command. I flew it in all kinds of conditions and had no sensations of it doing any PIO's. I would fly one just like it again in a heartbeat. I think being relaxed has more to do with the pilot being able to compensate and perform the subtle movements . Stan
 

SideKick

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
424
Location
Hebron MD
Aircraft
Air Command 447
Total Flight Time
11.5hrs dual in a RAF
I only have about 60hrs on my HTL Low Rider Air Command with extended keel and HS with a 447 but I love it. When I trained in a RAF I kept having problems with PIO and learning to overcome it. I have not encountered once instance of PIO with my AC.
PS I have only gotten one chance to fly since I just switched from the 447 to a 503 DCDI but I love it even more now.
 

LARRYEBOYER

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
1,250
Location
READING, PA
Paul, how ya doing? Congrats on the changeover to the 503. No more poor performance on hot days from the 447. Hope to see you in the spring at Wellsville and the 6th annual Mifflin County Rotorcraft and Experimental flyin in August.
 
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