New Air Command Accident Analysis Report

[PW_Plack]

Is looks more important than safety?

If short-term sales is your goal, of course looks are more important.

This isn't the world of Part 23 certificated aircraft, where a design that looks great on the showroom floor is also known to be tested against minimum stability standards. People buying gyroplanes have often had to choose between looks and stability. Many may have incorrectly assumed that it couldn't be introduced unless it was a safe product, or that the government would order it pulled from the shelves if it turned out to be dangerous.

Except for a few who live in the UK, they were mistaken.

I'd bet that for every sale of an unstable, "good-looking" machine, there were two or more sales lost to prospective customers whose families begged them not to fly "those deathtraps."

How much bigger would the sport and its marketplace be today if 99 out of 100 aviation enthusiasts didn't think flying a gyro was evidence of a death wish?

If gyroplanes, as a group, had a good safety record, they might sell in quantities more like other similarly-priced recreational power sports products. According to some recent estimates, that could be as much as a 60-fold sales increase.

There's no long-term benefit to the sport in selling machines which have appealing lines at the expense of stability.

 

[All_In]

John, IMHO that would be REGRESSING. :yo:

Good one chuter!

 

[Rotor Rooter]

Paul,

Perhaps your post presents a valid argument for the 'primary' question of; is the tractor configuration safer than the pusher configuration?


Dave

 

[barnstorm2]

Tim,

You mention some valid points, such as the first when you say;

____________________
Dennis has implied on a couple of recent posts that he is intending to introduce another rotorcraft. This of course, would be built upon his past experiences, both the good ones and the bad ones.

Should this be the case, it is a positive for Dennis and others to discuss and correct previous errors and assumptions, IMHO.


Dave

I agree completely.

I don't doubt for one minute that Dennis could once again revitalize our sport with a new gyro and a new company if he produced a NCLT or CLT gyro that was stable. I don't have to mention that it would be a sexy looking craft because Dennis has always made the best looking rotorcraft available during their time.

However, that is potential.

If we are talking potential we also have to take into account:

Larry Neal and his mind-blowing advances to our sport. I think hands down Larry has single-handedly brought more new technology into our sport then any one person since the days of Kellet, Pitcairn and Cervia.

Carter Copters have also done amazing things and have amazing potential. No small wonder they work closely with Larry Neal.

CBeaty and EBoyette have brought us DragonWings, and the best bang-for-the-buck super-safe great performing gyros that have ever existed.

Groen Brothers also have shown potential but seem not to be bringing it into the hobby but rather trying to bring back industrial autogyros.

I am sure there are more...

The point I am trying to get to is this.

The bar for potential is VERY high and Dennis will need more than looks in a new design, it will have to be safe, smart and a good market fit.

I have no doubt he could do it, but I don't see it happening while he is still defending the performance of known flawed design concepts.

Dennis can kick ass.. but will he?


.

 

[barnstorm2]

I'd bet that for every sale of an unstable, "good-looking" machine, there were two or more sales lost to prospective customers whose families begged them not to fly "those deathtraps."

How much bigger would the sport and its marketplace be today if 99 out of 100 aviation enthusiasts didn't think flying a gyro was evidence of a death wish?

If gyroplanes, as a group, had a good safety record, they might sell in quantities more like other similarly-priced recreational power sports products. According to some recent estimates, that could be as much as a 60-fold sales increase..

hear, here!

I wish I would have written that! Maybe you should write news and reviews for a living? Oh wait....

Expounding upon what Paul said...

I feel that we not only need to sell safe stable designs in the gyro market but we also have to sell ourselves as safe.

This forum has done wonders to bring stability and safety out into the open for people to learn and discuss.

That is not enough though.

We have to be open with people and admit we DID have a problem but we figured it out and now we are over it.

We are ready for our second wind and we have the greatest flying machines ever created!

When I was at 2009 BDays I kept hearing people talk about how they wished they could fly their PPC or XXX during middle of the day winds like the gyros.

There is more new interest in gyros now then when I started. We need to make the wave and ride it.

The damage to our sport from unstable 'bunt-o-matics' has to stop and stop now. We know better.

I don't care if you fly an unstable 10" HTL, high-powered, short coupled, enclosed, 2-place side by side machine with no HStab.. that is your choice.

But don't be telling people that it is as safe as other gyros or aircraft, don't be taking up passengers that are unaware of the HTL/stability flaw, don't be telling people it 'flys better that way'.

And tell people it was a helicopter so that when you PPO the news coverage is not so bad for us gyro folks...

.
Oh, crap.. how did that soap box get under me.... :noidea:

 

[PW_Plack]

...The damage to our sport from unstable 'bunt-o-matics' has to stop and stop now. We know better...

Tim, I'm somewhat cynical about the prospects for enough unity in the sport to get this done without trauma. There will always be people who are financially or emotionally invested in legacy designs, either as manufacturers or owners, and take it as a personal affront to consider they may have made mistakes.

I believe it will now require a painful split in the sport, characterized by a group of traditionalists on one side, and a separate group favoring stable machines, safe designs, adherence to the rules, and proven aviation best practices on the other. Ironically, that second group will be seen as the "new guard," but will actually be closely aligned with the design philosophies of the earliest autogyros, which were invented to be a safer alternative to fixed-wing.

If this split happens, it will require a safe "brand" to emerge. I put "brand" in quotes because it may not be a manufacturer. It may be a manufacturer, an association of manufacturers, a new organization for enthusiasts, a new sub-group of EAA, etc. Those who break off must be willing to risk alienating some pretty big current names in the sport. The brand will be either a trade name, or something like the UL seal on appliances, denoting conformity to a set of standards. It will require vigilance and enforcement to make sure it's not counterfeited.

The fastest, easiest way for this to happen, IMHO, would be SLSA gyroplanes, backed by audits of manufacturer claims of ASTM compliance performed by LAMA or another 3rd-party group. If that one change was to happen, there would be people with money who'd see the opportunity for mass-produced, factory-built gyros, wouldn't give a rodent's colon about hurt feelings among old schoolers, and would start the process of rebuilding the reputation of what is supposed to be the safest of all powered aircraft.

I hope this happens before the sport disappears. We really are a major PITA to the the rest of general aviation, and a zit on the face of the homebuilding movement.

 

[All_In]

Paul, you are good!!!

I hadn't thought about the split that might be necessary, but the 3rd party monitor and SLSA rotorcraft I believe is right on!

 

[fiveboy]

If recognizing a problem spawns a solution and the solution is the split and self regulatory endorsements.... that leaves the how of the equation....

 

[PW_Plack]

Five, what I've described is already up and running in fixed-wing LSA. The FAA gave the industry a choice of audits conducted in-house by the manufacturers, or by a third party, and the Light Aircraft Manufacturers Association appears to be a working solution. It represents all manufacturers, so it will never become anti-industry, but it's not beholden to any one manufacturer, so it has the freedom to call out any companies which have fraudulently self-certified as meeting ASTM standards.

Accepting gyros into LSA would cover every change I've mentioned. All we'd need would be a valid set of consensus standards. I'm not clear on how many manufacturers would have to agree, and how that bar would be set, but the rest of the process would be automatic.

LSA has a determined, FAA-enforced definition. LSA would be the "brand." Some machines would make the cut, others would not. Manufacturers who met the standard would have a huge new market in selling factory-built machines; those who chose not to conform could still sell into the amateur-built kit market. I believe that eventually, the LSA side would open up a big lead in safety stats and reputation.

We're pretty far off-topic here. Maybe this would make a good thread of its own.

 

[PW_Plack]

I hadn't thought about the split that might be necessary, but the 3rd party monitor and SLSA rotorcraft I believe is right on!

John, these splits happen all the time. Sometimes, they're so respectful they're hardly noticed. Other times the people who break away have become so frustrated that they don't handle it gracefully.

A big example of the latter just happened in the flight instruction community. The National Association of Flight Instructors (NAFI), which is an affiliate of EAA and does not allow member instructors to vote for its directors, split over an internal political matter for which its bylaws didn't provide an escape valve.

Now, the competing Society of Aviation and Flight Educators (SAFE) has drained off some of NAFI's most active members, has bylaws allowing members more say in governance, and is setting up programs which parallel what has traditionally been offered by NAFI.

When such a fork-in-the-road happens, and there's a choice in direction, the two groups can sometimes develop very different missions and personalities. Darwin usually picks a winner.

And sadly, if there's one thing this sport knows only too well, it's natural selection.

 

[Terry]

New Air Command Accident Analysis Report questions

New Air Command Accident Analysis Report questions

Thanks for posting the information Dennis. I am kind of new here and considering a gyroplane purchase or build. I posted in a separate thread a question about what appears to be a high incidence of RAF 2000 and Commander accidents in the NTSB's records, but I have not yet received a response.

Then I saw your posting, which leaves with me the idea that if the statistics you've provided are common to a high-tech model of gyroplane such as the Commanders, aren't those poor pilot statistics just as common to the myriad of other brands? And how much more common are they to the later designed beginner type gyroplanes like the Bees and such, which also appear to have come out about the time as the Air Commanders, yet do not appear to have as many accidents?

Related to the last part of your post, I do not have any statistics on how many other gyroplane designs were built since the first Commander was built, as you might; but surely there were far more of them in total than there were Commanders.

I've been enjoying reading your knowledable postings here the past few days, and hope to learn more from you in the future. I am just struggling for understanding.

Terry Graham
:yo:

 

[birdy]

Good luck with your call to Dennis for help Terry.
Iv asked him a few questions over a time, and he seems to think theres a hidden agender.
It seems he is very selective as to who he decides to help.
If you agree with everythn he says and praise him no end [ feed his ego IOW] your in for a treat, coz after all he's dun, he's gota know a fair bit.
But if you so much as question him, or even ask clarification, your likely to be called a smartass, moron, idiot, bully or wotever else comes to mind at the time.

I consider Dennis a waste of real life experiance.
All coz of his ego.

 

[barnstorm2]

Then I saw your posting, which leaves with me the idea that if the statistics you've provided are common to a high-tech model of gyroplane such as the Commanders, aren't those poor pilot statistics just as common to the myriad of other brands? And how much more common are they to the later designed beginner type gyroplanes like the Bees and such,......:

Terry,

You might get some clarification here:

https://www.prachapter34.com/gyro_safety.htm

Also, here is a Power Point presentation. If you get prompted for a Password just click CANCEL, the presentation will still play.

I will take a minute or two to load.

https://gyrowiki.com/Shared Documen...9&View={C6E56DDF-7A3A-4C7D-A021-308373D3AE19}

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

A 'short' answer might be:

The original Autogyros (Kellet / Pitcairn) had and have the best safety record in aviation.

The 80-90's designed gyro kits have the worst safety record in aviation.

The Stable, NCLT/CLT designs (2000 kits) are showing them selves to as good or a better safety record then the rest of the Experimental aircraft.

The HTL+unstable designs of the 80-90s are much more likely to kill a new pilot or an experienced Fixed Wing pilot transitioning to gyro then a stable gyro design. These designs are also more likely to kill an experienced pilot than a stable design.

All makes / models will get about the same number of people that are nubees and transistionals.
.

 

[fiveboy]

The how remains begging

The how remains begging

Five, what I've described is already up and running in fixed-wing LSA. The FAA gave the industry a choice of audits conducted in-house by the manufacturers, or by a third party, and the Light Aircraft Manufacturers Association appears to be a working solution. It represents all manufacturers, so it will never become anti-industry, but it's not beholden to any one manufacturer, so it has the freedom to call out any companies which have fraudulently self-certified as meeting ASTM standards.

Accepting gyros into LSA would cover every change I've mentioned. All we'd need would be a valid set of consensus standards. I'm not clear on how many manufacturers would have to agree, and how that bar would be set, but the rest of the process would be automatic.

LSA has a determined, FAA-enforced definition. LSA would be the "brand." Some machines would make the cut, others would not. Manufacturers who met the standard would have a huge new market in selling factory-built machines; those who chose not to conform could still sell into the amateur-built kit market. I believe that eventually, the LSA side would open up a big lead in safety stats and reputation.

We're pretty far off-topic here. Maybe this would make a good thread of its own.

Paul I understand, but the how part of my question was aimed more toward who would spearhead such a thing vs the mechanism of what would happen. This community is fragmented and incohesive at best. Except for a marginal website (John will change that I am certain) and a magazine that preaches only to the choir, the PRA seems to exist primarily as a means to an end, that end being an airport that serves some infrequently. I really do not see how this transition and/or coalescence would occur (At this point in the screenplay we cue Greg Gremminger to fly in under his own power with music up?).

I say less thread more action!

NB: Though I dinged PRA I do believe anyone who flies a gyro, or intends to, should be a member. I also think the PRA should become much more professional (ie: organized) in representing the long term interests of gyrocraft & gyronauts. Right now it feels very mom and pop out in a cornfield.

 

[Vance]

In my opinion what I could see happening is a business person would identify a business case for producing and selling gyroplanes. He would do what it takes, including spending money, to get things in line with the government to allow him to do that.

It would be a very large undertaking because he would have to create a market where one doesn’t exist.

He would have to create a training infrastructure where one doesn’t exist.

To manage the liability ramifications the product would need to be engineered and tested. Gyroplane stability and structural analysis is not a mystery, it just costs money.

Marketing is not a mystery; it just costs money.

Production and cost control is not a mystery; it just takes focus and an investment in tooling.

Someone has to take the risk for this to happen.

At this point there is not an identifiable market and therefore no resources to make this happen. Volunteers can only do so much. The total gross of the entire gyroplane “industry” in the United States of America is less than many retail stores.

The PRA was started to promote Bensen gyrocopters and it did a fine job of that.

There is currently not a gyroplane industry with capital behind it so the PRA is floundering.

Managing government regulation is a lot of hard work and it is difficult to find a capable person who wants to do it just for the fun of it because, in my experience, it is not fun.

I feel that this thread has gotten very off track and out of respect for Dennis it would be worthwhile to start a new thread about the future of the gyroplanes, government regulation and marketing if there is interest in that. Dennis would probably have some very valuable experience to share on that subject. I feel his advertising and marketing were first rate.

Thank you, Vance

 

[barnstorm2]

Gloom and Doom...

Gloom and Doom...

There is (IMHO) less of a problem here then some may be seeing.

We don't have to enforce any standards on stability because (so far as I know) there are no longer any unstable HTL kits being produced and sold in North America.

Anyone shopping for a NEW gyroplane or building a popular design (bee ish) will get a good stable machine that is fine for a student or transitional pilot.

Magni = good
Air Command (CLT)= good
Sport Copter = good
Dominators = good
Xenon = good
Monarch/butterfly = good
Bees = good
LittleWing = good
SparrowHawk = good

I don't have first hand experience with UFOs and MT-03's but at a glance they seem to have things right.

To get a new Bunt-o-matic you have go to _ _ _ in S. America. And chances are they will run into the same problems they did in N. America and eventually go out of business too unless they start adding some stability.


I think we are largely 'cured' and can move forward on getting the word out.

Government Standards will only help in producing an SLSA gyroplane. I think we need one but lets not paint a picture that ASTM standards are the only way to make gyros safe.
.

.

 

[All_In]

Yes that's true Tim.

However without a LSA type rating and a 3rd party watch dog certifying them.

It's almost impossible to acquire major financing even from the SBA for experiential aircraft.

Once we have a certified aircraft normal credit lines become available just like financing a new piper dealership, etc.

Currently anyone wishing to bring this to our sport would have to invest their kids and grand kids inheritance and that's not probably going to happen.

 

[Jens]

...........[ feed his ego IOW] .......
All coz of his ego.

Quite some interest about Dennis ego

"All coz of his ego" ......
If your are a succes or a failure, can it bascically come from any other place than oneself?

If yes, I would like to know where - especially regarding (re)placing my failures

 

[BUD ONEAL]

Paul I understand, but the how part of my question was aimed more toward who would spearhead such a thing vs the mechanism of what would happen. This community is fragmented and incohesive at best. Except for a marginal website (John will change that I am certain) and a magazine that preaches only to the choir, the PRA seems to exist primarily as a means to an end, that end being an airport that serves some infrequently. I really do not see how this transition and/or coalescence would occur (At this point in the screenplay we cue Greg Gremminger to fly in under his own power with music up?).

I say less thread more action!

NB: Though I dinged PRA I do believe anyone who flies a gyro, or intends to, should be a member. I also think the PRA should become much more professional (ie: organized) in representing the long term interests of gyrocraft & gyronauts. Right now it feels very mom and pop out in a cornfield.

Gary Goldsberry tried to make the pra more professional and he got stompped bad for his efforts. One man can only do so much before he throws up his hands and swears off.
Trying to get two or more gyro owners to agree is akin to herding a bunch of long tailed tom cats in a room full of rocking chairs

 

[All_In]

Gary Goldsberry tried to make the pra more professional and he got stompped bad for his efforts. One man can only do so much before he throws up his hands and swears off.
Trying to get two or more gyro owners to agree is akin to herding a bunch of long tailed tom cats in a room full of rocking chairs

Your right on regarding one man can't do it!!

However I'm getting way to much credit I've got some great volunteers, Rob= Fiveson is a volunteer, so is Kevin, Tim Chick, Dave Bacon, Leigh, Helipatty, and many others that are really making it happen behind the curtain, and I'll be requesting more help including your help too Bud, soon!!!!

(I've left many of you off the list, sorry!)

This BOD is actually part of the solution and Tim O is putting in as much or more effort as I am, so I'm very hopeful!!

Tools will soon be available that will help anyone who wishes to make a real difference actually happen!

But it will only happen if more of you will help us make it so!


We can do IT!

PS:
Please stay tuned, tools are coming very soon, just stared on the last phase of adding & converting my database to the new PRA MYSQL database and were ready to let you all see how this could happen. Maybe 2 more weeks if I can keep working 20 hour days. We are very close to the end of the hard part!

I also hope to have an online version of the magazine by the end of July!