New 2 place enclosed Gryo unveiled in France

[PTKay]

Staff - AutoGyro Gmbh employee 80+ staff - there are not three men and a dog - see

Also Celier Aviation staff is now close to 20.
They cooperate with the Aviation Faculty of the Warsaw Polytechnics,
one of the best in the world, designers of the World Class Glider PW-5,
and many other successful constructions.
They extensively use aerodynamic computer modelling,
finite elements stress analysis etc..

The problem with gyroplanes being a fringe activity is that there’s no money for proper staff. It’s primarily a cut-n-try business.

I always appreciated your comments, Chuck,
but you obviously have no clue of the scale and size
of the gyrocopter market worldwide.

Unfortunately, due to stubborn FAA it is just the US gyro community
that got stuck in the situation you describe.

 

[flightrisk]

I always appreciated your comments, Chuck,
but you obviously have no clue of the scale and size
of the gyrocopter market worldwide.

Unfortunately, due to stubborn FAA it is just the US gyro community
that got stuck in the situation you describe.

I am very interested in knowing more about the scale and size of the gyroplane market worldwide. Do you have any statistics and/or other market data that you coud share? Even a rough estimate would be helpful.

I am especially very curious about the growth of the gyroplane sector (outside of the US) within the past 10 years or so.

If this subject has already been covered and you could point me to the relevant post(s), I would be most appreciative.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Gyro_Kai]

Here some statistics from Germany this year:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29302

Kai.

 

[PTKay]

I am especially very curious about the growth of the gyroplane sector (outside of the US) within the past 10 years or so.

I can give you some figures from Poland.

10 years ago it was non existent.

Company started 2006, Celier Aviation sold in the meantime over 120
gyrocopters worldwide.

Taking into consideration the world aviation crisis,
dropping sales numbers in any branch of GA,
gyroplanes register 20 to 30% growth in most markets.

It is, of course taking off from a low level, but nevertheless.

The stupid stubborn position of FAA in the US is
really hard to understand, taking into consideration those facts.

 

[Vance]

Stupid position?

Stupid position?

The stupid stubborn position of FAA in the US is
really hard to understand, taking into consideration those facts.

Hello Paul,

I have found to imagine someone's position is stupid simply because they do not agree with me self defeating.

Perhaps they know something that I don’t or have different priorities.

In my opinion none of the people I have met that work for the FAA seem stupid.

Most FAA employees I have met take their job seriously and seem to me to be above average in intelligence.

Thank you, Vance

 

[aerobatic]

Hello Paul,

I have found to imagine someone's position is stupid simply because they do not agree with me self defeating.

Perhaps they know something that I don’t or have different priorities.

In my opinion none of the people I have met that work for the FAA seem stupid.

Most FAA employees I have met take their job seriously and seem to me to be above average in intelligence.

Thank you, Vance

I agree with you Vance, but it is still paradoxical that for safety reasons, Transport Canada only allow proven designs and factory build gyros and in the USA the equivalent authorities just denied them...

Maher

 

[Vance]

Saftey or Precedure

Saftey or Precedure

I agree with you Vance, but it is still paradoxical that for safety reasons, Transport Canada only allow proven designs and factory build gyros and in the USA the equivalent authorities just denied them...

Maher

Hello Maher,

In my opinion the lack of Light Sport gyroplanes in the USA has little to do with safety and more to do with procedure.

It appears to me that the consensus standards for light sport gyroplanes were written without much industry consensus because there appears to me little movement by the gyroplane manufactures toward demonstrating compliance with these standards.

The consensus standards appear unrelated to any other country’s standards and substantially different than the consensus standards for other FAA approved light sport aircraft consensus standards.

I am not aware of an effort from Rotary Flight Dynamics, Sport Copter or Honey Bee G2 the consensus standards.

American Autogiro has suspended production of the SparrowHawk and does not appear to be moving toward meeting the consensus standards.

RAF marketing has moved to South Africa since the standards were written and apparently is not moving toward meeting them.

AutoGyro GMBH has only been around since 1999 and seems to be interested in this market. I am not aware of efforts on their part to meet the consensus standards.

I have not seen any efforts from Magni or ELA to meet the consensus standards.

Thank you, Vance

 

[aerobatic]

Hi Vance,

I'm not sure to really understand. What are exactly the USA light sport gyroplanes consensus standards, and who wrote them?

Are those standards too restrictives for the european manufacturers?

Maher

 

[Vance]

Change is slow.

Change is slow.

Hello Maher,

I don’t understand the consensus standard either.

From the FAR/AIM the definition for consensus standard reads; for the purpose of certificating light-sport aircraft, an industry-developed consensus standard that applies to aircraft design, production, and airworthiness. It includes but is not limited to, standards for aircraft design and performance, required equipment, manufacturer quality assurance systems, production acceptance test procedures, operating instructions, maintenance and inspection procedures, identification and recording of major repairs and major alterations, and continued airworthiness.

The FAA did not initially include gyroplanes but left the door open. We have a set of consensus standards that are different then the other types of light sport aircraft and different than the standards from other countries for gyroplanes. I do not know why none of the gyroplane manufactures have moved forward on them.

I hear gossip from inside the FAA that is not specific enough to be useful.

I suspect that if a manufacturer is interested in the market they will have to make a high risk long term investment in simply starting over again.

At this time the FAA is asking for a manufacture to prove that the consensus standards are valid and that the accident rate has been reduced because the manufacture has met those standards. I am not aware of a manufacturer that is going down that path.

LSA aircraft and light sport pilots seem a little overrepresented in the accident statistics so they don’t want to make it worse by including gyroplanes that have a terrible safety record in the USA.

I can see their point.

Thank you, Vance

 

[autogyro]

Sure,Bensen and Dick are great men in gyro dsign,what would be next exiting innovation in autogyo future ? Electrical gyro would give us more changes in autogyro?

The only real innovations in gyros since Bensen switched over to the offset gimbal rotorhead were those by Dick DeGraw:

Partially powered rotor with power split between prop and rotor by differential gearing.

Bensen didn’t invent the offset gimbal rotorhead nor did Dick invent jump takeoff but both refined those things in a way that made them practical and useful.

Bensen was the first to combine the offset head with a rotor having central flap hinges.


Dick DeGraw was one of the few to design a 3-blade rotor system with drag hinges that did not require dampers while avoiding ground resonance.O

The only real innovations in gyros since Bensen switched over to the offset gimbal rotorhead were those by Dick DeGraw:

Partially powered rotor with power split between prop and rotor by differential gearing.

Bensen didn’t invent the offset gimbal rotorhead nor did Dick invent jump takeoff but both refined those things in a way that made them practical and useful.

Bensen was the first to combine the offset head with a rotor having central flap hinges.


Dick DeGraw was one of the few to design a 3-blade rotor system with drag hinges that did not require dampers while avoiding ground resonance.O

Sure, both Bensen and Dick is great person in building gyro. What woud be next exiting involution in autogyro design?electrical gyro?


Sure,Bensen and Dick are great men in gyro dsign,what would be autogyo future ?

But those Flash Gordon wheel spats sure look spiffy.

Sure,Bensen and Dick are great men in gyro dsign,what would be autogyo future ?

Sure,Bensen and Dick are great men in gyro dsign,what would be autogyo future ?


Sure, both Bensen and Dick is great person in building gyro. What woud be next exiting involution in autogyro design?electrical gyro?


Sure,Bensen and Dick are great men in gyro dsign,what would be autogyo future ?

But those Flash Gordon wheel spats sure look spiffy.

 

[Graeme Monro]

Looks like you really got the knack with that quote and highlight thing Autogyro.

Graeme.

 

[PTKay]

Most FAA employees I have met take their job seriously and seem to me to be above average in intelligence.

So, maybe not stupid, but certainly stubborn...

 

[hjajr]

Maybe be but it sure is a nice Body on it. Great Visability. Wonder what the body would cost?

 

[Gyro_Kai]

Those consensus standards for the different aircraft, are they available to the public?

Kai.

 

[helipaddy]

Are these ASTM Standards the consensus standards that everyone is referring to?

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2352.htm

 

[C. Beaty]

Greg Gremminger wrote the consensus standards and I believe the complete text is posted on his website. I don’t have a link.

 

[Vance]

Are these ASTM Standards the consensus standards that everyone is referring to?

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2352.htm

Hello Padraic,

I don’t know about everyone but those are the standards I was referring to.

Thank you, Vance

 

[Irishpilot]

There are ASTM standards written for the production of Gyroplanes...that's not the problem. The problem is that they have not yet been adopted by the FAA. ASTM is not a government agency and until the FAA agrees to adopt these or any other standards for production...means no factory built Gyroplanes in the U.S. (With the exception for public aircraft).

Mike

 

[Dean_Dolph]

Just for the record Greg G. did not write the ASTM standards! I say that when he probably did the final wordsmithing.

What he did do was lead a team of about 20 or so (if memory serves me correctly!) with several on that team from outside the U.S. One of those on that ASTM team was our own Doug Riley. I believe Greg did an admirable job in moderating and compiling and massaging the input from the team members. I observed it to be a tortuous task.

And I don't care how many people are on staff of European gyro manufacturers. If they don't have competent people with the engineering credentials to design and build rotorcraft then it is just a design exercise such as the one that RAF did.

And as far as aerodynamics are concerned, it is about as much waste of time trying to determine by sight if a gyro is aerodynamic as it is determining if a gyro has a high thrust line. The proof is in the puddin' or in this case in a wind tunnel. But, admittedly, they sure are purty!

I do appreciate the effort that people outside the U.S. are investing. But, LSA gyros don't hold any interest for me as I will never be able to afford one.

One of the major factors that attract people to gyros is the relatively low cost as measured against other aircraft. Once you get past the $25K point then people start looking for other aircraft or hobby.

Fortunately there are those within, and outside, the U.S. that continue the evolution that Bensen started, and are bringing safer, better looking, higher performing and still reasonably priced gyros to market. These are FAA EAB machines and the vast majority of people that visit here are the ones who will be building/flying them.

The only thing I expect us to get from LSA is more public exposure and promotion of gyroplanes with possibly some innovations that will filter down to the EAB gyro. The public is likely to become enamored with the LSA gyro until they see the prices. But, once bit they are going to be addicted so will be looking to the EAB machines to satisfy that addiction.

I would say that at the moment SportCopter is the major player in U.S. LSA efforts and also has a broad base of EAB models to offer. But, Larry Neal certainly has the capability, if not the financial backing, to make a successful leap into the LSA market. I haven’t included Greg G’s LSA valiant efforts because he is representing a European manufacturer although he lobbies for all U.S. gyro manufacturers.

 

[Dean_Dolph]

There are ASTM standards written for the production of Gyroplanes...that's not the problem.

Correct!

The problem is that they have not yet been adopted by the FAA. ASTM is not a government agency

Correct again, however the FAA agreed (maybe even suggested) to have the LSA standards (all categories) development happen under the auspice of the ASTM. The LSA movement all started some where in the early or mid 90s when the EAA made the initial Sport Pilot proposal and acted as spear carrier for the rest of the groups.

...and until the FAA agrees to adopt these or any other standards for production...means no factory built Gyroplanes in the U.S. (With the exception for public aircraft).

There are other types, besides fixed wing, such as trikes and powered parachutes, whose standards are being used by manufacturers to produce LSA aircraft. The gyroplane standards were finished before anyone elses, even though the gyro team started late, (my records show 7/02) but the FAA hasn't seen fit to accept them. I don't know the particulars about why they haven't.

One thing I noticed in the abstract of the standards, in the ASTM link provided by helipaddy, was the gross weight of 1600 pounds. I know there was some discussion to raise the gyroplane weight to a higher one than the 1320 pounds the other types were stuck with but I had never heard that is had been changed. Is this true?!!