Negative Gs?

[hillberg]

paint it red with a sexy interior with chrome and leather a block of C-4 connected to a big red button and sell it for $100.000 - bet some Bozo would buy it and push that red button and the salesman will defend it with his last breath " He shouldn't of pressed that red button"

 

[Abid]

Fara you have not read what I am saying.

I said "As would a Magni if it had a Subaru with the redrive down" I know Magni dont make gyros with Subaru engine. its just a way of trying to tell you a Magni with anyother engine i.e. an Arrow engine in the Glasgow report can have a totally differant COG/Thrustline.

It is in no way indicitive of todays Magni's.

And yes I have read the report.

Not according to the guys who helped in designing both. Magni M16 and VPM M16 (Juka and Magni). VPM was Magni's original company. You should read all the links I posted fully.

 

[Abid]

Abid, you’re using every trick you can muster to prove, beginning with Cierva, that those who believe the ox should be hitched to the front of the cart are wrong.

I believe that such obfuscation is for the sole purpose of protecting the investment you’ve made in a Magni clone.

Rather than asking others to prove their designs, why don’t you prove your own clone?

I have never had any interest in manufacturing gyros, have never sold a gyro, have never owned a Dominator nor any other commercial design.

My first gyro was built from Bensen plans but used 2½ inch round 2024 aluminum tubing with Hughes 269 helicopter rotor blades and incorporated a large horizontal stabilizer. Bensen said it was not a Bensen even though I had registered it as a Bensen.

You realize that I could have easily made that investment in a gyroplane like you want but didn't. So lets not second guess my intention and its insulting that you think I would sell something I believe is unsafe.

I think that is the problem. You are not into manufacturing so you are wanting to live vicariously through others incorporating your ideas. That is just fine as long as you don't hide them behind: this is the only way its safe. Other ones, you will die kind of thing.

There are so many 10's of 1000s of hours flown in what you call are coffin makers safely, much more safely than any US designed machine that there is no right to state that as fact.

Your technical points need to be able to stand on their own that there is torque. Its better to do something about it. CLT is more efficient and should be incorporated as much as possible (but not at the cost of making an unpractical machine). Those are fine points by themselves. No fear mongering and insults to others products are required to make those points. No need for demeaning Magni either. Its in very bad taste. To me it says more about you than about Magni. He had his ideas and help from Juka. He implemented his ideas. You should implement yours if you want to. If not, you can make technical points without overstating them and they are fine points. I have never said they are not.

 

[eddie]

Fara,I have read and completely agree with your views.The new designs are fine flying

machines,and time will prove it. It comes down to the pilot, knowing his and his flying

machine limitations. In other words having the ability to make good aviation decisions.

Best of luck with your new aviation venture.





Best regards,

 

[birdy]

And i used to scratch me head im bemusement at the narrow minded brainwashed faith of them islamic terrorists savages.
They got nuthn on this bloke.

So what happens when your solution of fixed differential Horizontal Stab incidence is used and the pilot is flying at 90 mph and goes to idle to glide and then hits your proverbial lee side mountain downdraft or he just shoves the stick forward?
Wot happens??
Nuthn.
Just goes to show the level of understanding you dont have.
Even a dumb asa post cow grower dont need that explained.

You just can't gain respect from someone like me this way Chuck
I could be rong, but im pretty damn sure CB, like myself, wouldnt give a rats bout who you respected.
Earning respect from your betters is a more fruitful gain.

Big red button.
You pretty well nailed it Hillburg.

Iv never been so well entertained in years.
Not to mention made to feel interlectualy superier. ( falsely, sadly. )

 

[C. Beaty]

This has been more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

 

[Boots]

Just curious ,
The WAG competition call for gyros (free shipping) and pilots from around the world went out in plenty of time to get in the game .
Why was there not one example of these words greatest 100% pilot error proof gyro brands
there in the games ?

 

[Abid]

And i used to scratch me head im bemusement at the narrow minded brainwashed faith of them islamic terrorists savages.
They got nuthn on this bloke.

What is this supposed to mean Birdy. Try and learn civil discourse without getting personal. I told you before I respect people elder to me but there are limits to everything. You and Chuck both seem to be very fond of throwing personal digs and insults. The character of a man is shown through this.

So what happens when your solution of fixed differential Horizontal Stab incidence is used and the pilot is flying at 90 mph and goes to idle to glide and then hits your proverbial lee side mountain downdraft or he just shoves the stick forward?
Wot happens??
Nuthn.
Just goes to show the level of understanding you don't have.
Even a dumb asa post cow grower dont need that explained.

Actually you are wrong. Asymmetric aerodynamic moment even small at 90 mph will turn you to your side with nothing up there hanging you and with no control to counter it. You have just replaced one problem with another. Difference being power or no power.
To be honest in a gust what will actually happen is that the fuselage of a gyroplane with a good tail and HS will pitch up relative to gust and re-establish rotor thrust very quickly and thus no rolling over. The sub-second low G is quite ok with a stable machine like that.
The problem is when the pilot literally himself creates a zero G event by use of controls then its sustained long enough and creates essentially fatal results. You can experience downdrafts and updrafts in mountain type flying in gyroplanes with a good effective tail and as long as you don't do something stupid and use smooth control, the gyro will not be bunting over. You can make a LTL or a HTL gyro stable. Thrustline is not the only trick in the bag. Its not even the essential trick for stability.

You just can't gain respect from someone like me this way Chuck
I could be rong, but im pretty damn sure CB, like myself, wouldnt give a rats bout who you respected.
Earning respect from your betters is a more fruitful gain.

You notice that I have not taken any personal digs or thrown any insults like an uneducated idiot to either one of you. Both of you have thrown in discussing technical concepts half a dozen insults and digs at me. What do you think about that Birdy. How old are you? How old is Chuck?
What does that say about you and the desperate state you are in in these discussions? Who is my better? I don't recognize any character as such in this case.

Big red button.
You pretty well nailed it Hillburg.

Whatever that means.

Iv never been so well entertained in years.
Not to mention made to feel interlectualy superier. ( falsely, sadly. )

Good for you. I would be entertained also if you and Chuck did not feel like throwing personal insults because both your points have not been able to convince me. Let me assure you many people will read this thread and a couple of others in the future and smart people will see your insults and that alone reduces your argument. If you don't care then don't engage. Enough is enough.

For goodness sakes, you and him combined cannot come up with a testing criteria to say if a gyroplane meets this, its safe enough in pitch and torque at low G events. Yet you claim to be experienced and experts. Boo. Its no good. If I was in the ASTM Gyroplane sub-committee as a chair and Chuck was in there and he could not come up with testable requirements to satisfy his ideas, I would throw him out of the sub-committee. In fact in other sub-committees people were separated from work items just for such reasons.

 

[birdy]

What is this supposed to mean Birdy.
Zactly wot it says Fara.
Dont be offended, or think im " getn personal", im just comparen your dogged faith in your own beliefs to that of one of them savages.
Neither of you can be convinced that your beliefs has a flaw, no matter how compeling to opposing argument.

As for the "digs", its a forum of restrained frustration.
You think that wot youv read on this forum is personal or offencive?
Iv no intention of getn personal or offending you, youd know if i did.

No, wot you percieve as personal attacks, digs or offencive behaviour is only your perception of my interpretation of your understanding.

To me, you and Greg G are one in the same.
Thats not a personal attack, its not ment to be offencive, its how i see your understanding and its not the same as mine, so we dont agree.

I think your perception of me is way off the mark.
Im just a cow grower.
Iv no education, no character, no integrity, no PHD, my age is no indication of my maturity and i dont demand respect.

Being able to convince you would be a bonus, and a pipe dream.
No, i know ill never convince you, but my pointing out the flaws in your statements, dose serve a usefuf purpose, for those with open minds.

Yet you claim to be experienced and experts
Where, anywhere on this forum, can you show me where iv said this??

Didnt think so.

Boo.

 

[Abid]

What is this supposed to mean Birdy.
Zactly wot it says Fara.
Dont be offended, or think im " getn personal", im just comparen your dogged faith in your own beliefs to that of one of them savages.
Neither of you can be convinced that your beliefs has a flaw, no matter how compeling to opposing argument.

As for the "digs", its a forum of restrained frustration.
You think that wot youv read on this forum is personal or offencive?
Iv no intention of getn personal or offending you, youd know if i did.

No, wot you percieve as personal attacks, digs or offencive behaviour is only your perception of my interpretation of your understanding.

To me, you and Greg G are one in the same.
Thats not a personal attack, its not ment to be offencive, its how i see your understanding and its not the same as mine, so we dont agree.

I think your perception of me is way off the mark.
Im just a cow grower.
Iv no education, no character, no integrity, no PHD, my age is no indication of my maturity and i dont demand respect.

Being able to convince you would be a bonus, and a pipe dream.
No, i know ill never convince you, but my pointing out the flaws in your statements, dose serve a usefuf purpose, for those with open minds.

Yet you claim to be experienced and experts
Where, anywhere on this forum, can you show me where iv said this??

Didnt think so.

Boo.

Ok. Birdy. I take you at your word.
Look all this stuff I am telling you has basically been told before and specifically to you and in much more detailed and math oriented way than I would have ever ever done on a forum like this. Do you remember? You did not believe that after all the math, simplified models etc., there is no chance of me making you see it.
I think it was Raghu (spelling) who took you and a few others through a math exercise to show you the light but if that didn't work, I have no chance. I won't go into math here on this forum. It is simply not the place and definitely not worth it.
I guess we have to agree to disagree.
I have never talked to Greg Gremminger (is that who Greg G is) about anything even remotely resembling stability of a gyroplane in any detail. To be very straight forward I have talked to Greg Gremminger may be 4 times in my life very briefly. I think its obvious that the poor guy is burnt out. He does not care anymore and certainly I can see how he got there. I know from hearsay and from some of his posts that he definitely likes what he calls Big Tail Way Back or some such header but I never even attended the forum about that he gave at Mentone when I was there. In other words, my conclusions and views have very little influence from Greg G.
My best regards to you.

 

[birdy]

" I won't go into math here on this forum."
I woulda thort this forum was the perfect place.

"Do you remember?"
Truthfully, no.

"I guess we have to agree to disagree"
Been do,n that from the start.
You keep posting missinfomation, ill keep dissagreeing.

BTW, i didnt say Greg G influenced you, or even says the same thing.
But i will say this, at least you dont appear hypocritical in you undetstanding, yet.

 

[SGK]

Sometimes, the reality isn't so polarized as some of you see it.
I see usage of rude words as primitive behaviour and get the feeling that authors shouldn't be taken seriously.
Criticism can be good when it's constructive but it's important to be carefull when using words on forum sites.
When trying to be humoristic, it's good idea to use smileys, especially if you're sarcastic.

Back to the isue this thread is mostly about: I like hypotheses like these:

http://www.pra.org/publicdl/Engineering%20Design%20Papers/h-stab%20design%20and%20placement%20don%20shoebridge.pdf

 

[Gyro_Kai]

Abid,

you react to any emotional or derogatory message (which I don't approve of, btw.) but never to the logical, matter of fact ones. Go back to my previous post on page 11, read and try to understand. Please ask or challenge, without personal insult, what is unclear.

I still think you took the ELA concept a step further and I congratulate you for it. However, the ELA concept (not Magni, in my opinion, their overbalanced rotor makes all the differnece) has a couple of flaws, and it would be a great idea to eradicate those, before they cost more lives.

Kai.

 

[C. Beaty]

As a businessman Birdy, in the business of growing cows, you know very well that the bottom line is return on investment.

You don’t invest in blue ribbon bulls unless they can make money for you and show a decent return on your investment; I doubt if you’re interested in buying them for pets.

It’s the same with the gyro business; the best chance of doing well is to copy a design that’s already a top seller. To hell with all the technical silliness.

 

[Aviomania]

I did not want to continue in this pointless educational discussion since most people do not want to be educated.... but .... since i have seen my name and products been mentioned and challenged i need to make one more comment!!!!. i will try and keep it as simple as possible.

It is against my personal interest to try and show to other gyroplane manufacturers how they can improve there products.... but when it comes down to try and save at least a single life then i put aside my personal interests.

Abid, you are referring to negative G's ( the G i have mentioned i tried my gyroplane at as well as the G's experienced by the pilot in WAG) as being -2 maybe -5 G's. I believe that even the WAG accident was not much lower than 0 G. You said you can arrange for us to see the WAG video... please arrange so we can all be educated.

Facts:
-0.01 G is a negative G!!! so.. we do not need to go to -2 G to be able to talk about - G's.

torque over, push over, even drag over by the big low positioned cabins (even at idle engine RPM) can occur from +0.3 G.... and surely at +0.1 to 0 G. any negative G will also add other effects on the frame and rotor.

this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWNKvAyKcFc

shows a pure guy that just lulled sharply up... see the slow motion part at the end... you can see that he only moved the stick an inch forward... also the Mac engine it was not that high thrust but it started pushing him over.. and then ..although the Mac does not have a lot of torque it rolls him over... even full stick deflection did not to the left did not save him.. you can see it in slow motion.

you are strongly advocating that putting the HS or fin so it will works against the engine torque is not needed for a safe design...... it is like saying OK.. if you have safety belts in your car is as safe as it can get because they will protect you when you crash at reasonable speeds...... But... if you crash at 150 MPH you are going to kill your self.... so.. no need to have air bags installed.

we do not say that the features we are promoting on our designs are 100% pilot proof.... we just say that we give them all the protection they can get....

I was going to respect it if you were saying that you do not believe the extra safety provided by a on HS in the propwash worth the aesthetic loss.... but you are just saying that all we are trying to share with everybody is figment of our imaginations!!!

Now... on the subject of your chalange to show you how aviomania behaves at 0 or - G.....

the reason i did not show the tests i did back in 2009 is so that pilots will not try them just because i tested them and survived. The reason i tested them was not for certification purpoces.... it was for me to have my consies clear that i am offering to my customers the best protection posible.... so.. i can realy say to them ... If you make a small mistake the gyroplane will not bite you... but will give you the chance tp correct your mistake.

you see.... i do not want to say to them.... do not make a mistake!!!

your idea of showing what Aiomania gyros behave like at reduced or - G it will prove a nice selling point... so i might do it when i have the time... but......

since you challenged me...... what do you say we make it simple??? i show you some reduced G manoeuvres (simple ones) and you duplicate them with your gyroplane.... at the same altitude as i will be doing them (below 100 feet)?

 

[phantom]

I am not an engineer or anything else educated , I have been into gyros since the early 70s and being isolated from people who knew what they were doing was a mixed blessing in that I had no one to copy so I did a lot of experimenting and made a lot of mistakes but I learned from them and since I didn't know about a gimbal head I was forced to make my machines stable and from this knowledge I feel safe on saying that the machines that could fly with my heads that have no artificial stability with little or no modification are the little wing , Vance's preditator , dominator , aviomania and the machine that chuck built with boom over prop, there may be others but I wouldn't try it with mto or copies.
This is my opinion.
Norm

 

[Abid]

" I won't go into math here on this forum."
I woulda thort this forum was the perfect place.

"Do you remember?"
Truthfully, no.

"I guess we have to agree to disagree"
Been do,n that from the start.
You keep posting missinfomation, ill keep dissagreeing.

BTW, i didnt say Greg G influenced you, or even says the same thing.
But i will say this, at least you dont appear hypocritical in you undetstanding, yet.

Hi Birdy:
Here is the reminder but you have to read it through completely from this page onwards, all the way. He takes you through why gyroplanes with good H-stabs resist getting into sustained zero or very low G loading. Would be good for Kai also.
When it does not last in very low G loading before re-loading, there is then no torque over. The counter to that is if the pilot keeps it there and sustain the very low G by his actions and also keeps high power setting on then its over for the pilot unfortunately. It should be muscle memory for a gyroplane pilot to not push the stick forward and fly the proverbial parabola. Its not going to to end up good and you are relying on your luck a bit much.

http://vps.zoniehosting.com/~rotary/forum/showthread.php?t=39895&page=3

Enjoy all the math. Concepts still matter though. They are just explained in a language of math and not everyone here understands that language well nor should one have to be, to be a pilot and understand the concept. Just concentrate on the concept and it is understandable for everyone.

 

[swilliams]

Abid you should just give it up. When people have a closed mind there is no chance of any other opinion but there own. Nick you got dragged into this conversation and sorry to see that. I was on your sight I noticed that you have taken your I closed models off it. Sorry to see that they did look good. I don't want a open stile like what you sell so according to Chuck and Birdy Iam just waiting for Darwin to collect me. I plan on flying inside my aircrafts design and train to make proper decision. Even your aircraft has limits so when a pilot take them beyond there skills and dies does that make your design unsafe? Fly safe and have a long life enjoying what you do and the people around you.

Sincerely SWilliams

 

[Abid]

I did not want to continue in this pointless educational discussion since most people do not want to be educated.... but .... since i have seen my name and products been mentioned and challenged i need to make one more comment!!!!. i will try and keep it as simple as possible.

It is against my personal interest to try and show to other gyroplane manufacturers how they can improve there products.... but when it comes down to try and save at least a single life then i put aside my personal interests.

Abid, you are referring to negative G's ( the G i have mentioned i tried my gyroplane at as well as the G's experienced by the pilot in WAG) as being -2 maybe -5 G's. I believe that even the WAG accident was not much lower than 0 G. You said you can arrange for us to see the WAG video... please arrange so we can all be educated.

Facts:
-0.01 G is a negative G!!! so.. we do not need to go to -2 G to be able to talk about - G's.

torque over, push over, even drag over by the big low positioned cabins (even at idle engine RPM) can occur from +0.3 G.... and surely at +0.1 to 0 G. any negative G will also add other effects on the frame and rotor.

this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWNKvAyKcFc

shows a pure guy that just lulled sharply up... see the slow motion part at the end... you can see that he only moved the stick an inch forward... also the Mac engine it was not that high thrust but it started pushing him over.. and then ..although the Mac does not have a lot of torque it rolls him over... even full stick deflection did not to the left did not save him.. you can see it in slow motion.

you are strongly advocating that putting the HS or fin so it will works against the engine torque is not needed for a safe design...... it is like saying OK.. if you have safety belts in your car is as safe as it can get because they will protect you when you crash at reasonable speeds...... But... if you crash at 150 MPH you are going to kill your self.... so.. no need to have air bags installed.

we do not say that the features we are promoting on our designs are 100% pilot proof.... we just say that we give them all the protection they can get....

I was going to respect it if you were saying that you do not believe the extra safety provided by a on HS in the propwash worth the aesthetic loss.... but you are just saying that all we are trying to share with everybody is figment of our imaginations!!!

Now... on the subject of your chalange to show you how aviomania behaves at 0 or - G.....

the reason i did not show the tests i did back in 2009 is so that pilots will not try them just because i tested them and survived. The reason i tested them was not for certification purpoces.... it was for me to have my consies clear that i am offering to my customers the best protection posible.... so.. i can realy say to them ... If you make a small mistake the gyroplane will not bite you... but will give you the chance tp correct your mistake.

you see.... i do not want to say to them.... do not make a mistake!!!

your idea of showing what Aiomania gyros behave like at reduced or - G it will prove a nice selling point... so i might do it when i have the time... but......

since you challenged me...... what do you say we make it simple??? i show you some reduced G manoeuvres (simple ones) and you duplicate them with your gyroplane.... at the same altitude as i will be doing them (below 100 feet)?

I challenged Chuck who seems to say you should do it.
I am sorry you are dragged into it.
But if you are making such claims that you can go to near zero or negative G like the WAG pilot and recover in very little altitude, yeah I have to tell you, I doubt it.
Roy Davis is fairly good pilot for gyroplane I'd say. He was there. He has the video. He is not posting it and the reason is he does not probably want to be in pissing matches. But his clear intent to Todd Ware (the trike pilot at WAG from the US) was, that any machine would have folded in what this pilot did and that it was not the machine's fault. I think I'll leave it at that.

P.D. that video you cited has a bensen like gyroplane with no effective HS btw and I do not think he moved the stick forward an inch. He moved it forward about 2.5 to 3 inches from the point he started to move it forward meaning first he did a zoom climb to show off (not just lulled sharply up, that was very deliberate show off thing with cameras, audience and action) and he had pulled the stick back a couple of inches to do that and he moves it forward about 3 inches as he let the airspeed decay. He was in very low G for about 2+ seconds without any H stab. We do this test in trikes with almost exactly the same sequence to 30 degrees pitch up attitudes with a parachute on board to make sure that pitch stability in the design can handle it. This guy needed an effective HS to start loading his rotor in sub-seconds or if he knew where to do it, he could have banked and loaded the rotors but that requires skill and timing and a lot of seat of the pants feel.

 

[Aviomania]

Abid you should just give it up. When people have a closed mind there is no chance of any other opinion but there own. Nick you got dragged into this conversation and sorry to see that. I was on your sight I noticed that you have taken your I closed models off it. Sorry to see that they did look good. I don't want a open stile like what you sell so according to Chuck and Birdy Iam just waiting for Darwin to collect me. I plan on flying inside my aircrafts design and train to make proper decision. Even your aircraft has limits so when a pilot take them beyond there skills and dies does that make your design unsafe? Fly safe and have a long life enjoying what you do and the people around you.

Sincerely SWilliams

our enclosed models are the same as our open frame with slightly larger tail to cope with extra area of the cabin. we kept the cabin as small as possible to fit a 6'3" 210 lbs pilot ( actually a 6'6" 230 lbs went in also). i could make it bigger... but it is safer to keep that size. Little bigger can also be safe but not as the size we chose. and yes they are also CLT and have an active torque compensation tail.

a pilot can take our models out of limits and kill himself.... what i can say though is... if you sustain 0 or - G in our models you will not be punished by torque over, push over or drag over..... what will kill you is rotor RPM decay.... the difference is that torque over, push over or drag over will not give you a chance to react... like the pour guy in the video in my previews post... but rotor RPM decay gives you a chance or time to recover.... not long... but it does give you that extra chance.