MTO SPORT CLASSIC TAKEOFF DISTANCE

Maksimus

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I think its the wrong approach. When you are a newbie, I don't care if you have a 915 powered gyro. You are going to screw up technique and will need more runway. This will happen whether its a new trike pilot or airplane pilot also. It takes time to get things in your technique consistent and correct before attempting where there is little margin for screwups.
Basically with 250 meters (820 feet) yes you should be able to break ground if you did everything right. In fact yu can break ground in half that. A 914 engine at the least not a 912ULS is what I'd recommend. One up versus 2 up makes a huge difference as well and runway condition should be maintained. Pre-rotate to 220, pull stick all the way back and smoothly go to full power. Work with your instructor on this project. Put a yellow flag or marker and if you pass that and still on the ground, abort immediately.
Yeah well i ll try it with an instructor next week. I do have 914 on my gyro. Yeah checkpoint would be really helpful thanks
 

rcflier

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I'd also like to know how you manage in different situations.
As I have a 914 MTO Sport and a small runway of 250 meters....
I am still a student - soon to fly solo.

My instructor has a runway of 300 meters and we never have any problem at all.
Actually, I'm very happe with the performance of my 914 MTO (upgraded MT-03).

But even in summer we don't have abnormal temperatures.

I believe the german Chris tried many different rotor RPM's and found
it didn't make any consistent difference. He posted the results here somewhere.

I can prerotate to 260-270(fortunately I have the old gear), but I never go beyond 220.
You should take care - you must have the new gear. It's not very sturdy.

I have a Gyro-Tech carbon rotor, but I don't think that makes any difference.

I have seen some small Youtube videos of my gyro with the old Type1 rotor,
and the previous owner got good performance from it also.

Just make sure your 914 engine works as it should. Always cool the turbo after use.

Cheers
Erik
 
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Vance

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Dear Friends!

After ages of flying on airplanes now im new on Gyro-planes. I need your advises about the MTO Sport Classic with 914 Engine.
My main question is about the take off ground roll distance.
Imagine sea level condition with 30-35 Celsius with take off mass of roughly 450 kg include passenger and 20 liters of fuel. Also lets imagine no wind condition. What would be roughly my take off ground roll? In the POH of MTO sport take off distance called out 100 meters and there is chart about increased distance with pressure alt and temp. But i need real life experiences.
Also during the Pre-Rotation what rpm you use for short field take off?

Best regards
Maks
It is my observation that the takeoff roll and climb out for almost all of the gyroplanes I have flown is inconsistent because of weather inconsistencies and my inconsistent takeoff technique.

Loading and density altitude may make a large difference in the length of your takeoff roll.

A low time pilot is typically inconsistent in their takeoff technique.

Individual gyroplanes of the same make and model may have different takeoff performance.

A nice thing about a gyroplane is the takeoff may be successfully aborted fairly near the end of the runway.

I feel there is value in practicing aborting a takeoff on a longer runway to get a more precise understanding on how much distance is required.

A cross wind can significantly increase the lift off distance and I recommend against taking off with a tail wind.

In my opinion each takeoff should be taken seriously and made with great care and planning.

The unforgiving nature of a short runway makes that all the more important.

I wish you all the best on your gyroplane adventure.
 

Abid

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Aborting takeoff is an essential skill and procedure that needs to be fully committed to memory for gyroplanes. It should be practiced in the emergency lesson with an instructor. Anything from wild life or an onset of a flap or engine not developing full RPM require immediate correct sequence of actions to abort takeoff and eliminate the risk of damage to machine or worst.
Cut power completely and smoothly stick forward while apply wheel brake.
 

Maksimus

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MTO SPORT CLASSIC
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Im new in this forum. Actually surprised how people are friendly and really trying their best to help each other. I really appreciate it. As i said before i have been CFI on airplanes for long time but gyro is different story and for sure never been pretentious in aviation.Every day i learn something new and it for sure makes me happy. I have mentality of aviation safety and any Emergency case. and for sure if i see anything unsafe i wont do it. Even before starting the flying in the mentioned field i really wanted to get ideas of different pilots and CFI's on gyro and it really helped. The thing is that actually we mostly takeoff from roughly 100-150 meters on regular runway,i know the effects of grass on tire and the friction from airplanes on landing at non concrete runways. Fortunately aborted take off and stopping during t-off roll is taking a lot less distance than airplanes. Also might avoid taking off from wet grass at least for now. As i said before the field is golf course with really short grass which will help. Also i can always adjust my take off and landings into the wind cause we have 2 of the same strips with different directions which will help me a lot. Actually i have 2 rotor options. 8 and 8.4 which i ordered. The one on the gyro is 8 meters. What do you think about puting the 8.4 on? @Abid
 

Abid

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Im new in this forum. Actually surprised how people are friendly and really trying their best to help each other. I really appreciate it. As i said before i have been CFI on airplanes for long time but gyro is different story and for sure never been pretentious in aviation.Every day i learn something new and it for sure makes me happy. I have mentality of aviation safety and any Emergency case. and for sure if i see anything unsafe i wont do it. Even before starting the flying in the mentioned field i really wanted to get ideas of different pilots and CFI's on gyro and it really helped. The thing is that actually we mostly takeoff from roughly 100-150 meters on regular runway,i know the effects of grass on tire and the friction from airplanes on landing at non concrete runways. Fortunately aborted take off and stopping during t-off roll is taking a lot less distance than airplanes. Also might avoid taking off from wet grass at least for now. As i said before the field is golf course with really short grass which will help. Also i can always adjust my take off and landings into the wind cause we have 2 of the same strips with different directions which will help me a lot. Actually i have 2 rotor options. 8 and 8.4 which i ordered. The one on the gyro is 8 meters. What do you think about puting the 8.4 on? @Abid

Get the largest rotor even 8.6m if you can. But certainly 8.4 m. If you carefully look and feel AutoGyro rotor surface. It’s not very smooth. At the tips at 380 mph that’s an issue. But you have to use their rotors so go with larger one.
 

Maksimus

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MTO SPORT CLASSIC
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It is my observation that the takeoff roll and climb out for almost all of the gyroplanes I have flown is inconsistent because of weather inconsistencies and my inconsistent takeoff technique.

Loading and density altitude may make a large difference in the length of your takeoff roll.

A low time pilot is typically inconsistent in their takeoff technique.

Individual gyroplanes of the same make and model may have different takeoff performance.

A nice thing about a gyroplane is the takeoff may be successfully aborted fairly near the end of the runway.

I feel there is value in practicing aborting a takeoff on a longer runway to get a more precise understanding on how much distance is required.

A cross wind can significantly increase the lift off distance and I recommend against taking off with a tail wind.

In my opinion each takeoff should be taken seriously and made with great care and planning.

The unforgiving nature of a short runway makes that all the more important.

I wish you all the best on your gyroplane adventure.
Thanks!
 

rcflier

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In Germany - do you absolutely have to use the Auto-Gyro rotor?
I know of the kennblatts, we use them as a basis ourselves.

But I got permission to use a carbon rotor (of 8.4 meter).
Also another propeller (not HTC or IVO).

I would like to know why you wrote 30-35 degrees (C).
Where do you have those temps?

The normal size rotor for an MTO is 8.4 meter. And if you
use 8.6 meter, you run the risk of the rotor RPMs being too low.
It has happened here (DK) recently.

Martin Koller of Austria uses a rotor of 8.5 meter, because he flies at high altitudes.
That works for him.

Mine is 8.4 meter and the RPMs are just perfect. Denmark is nearly at sea level.
But I haven't experienced 30-35 deg. C.
 
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Maksimus

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In Germany - do you absolutely have to use the Auto-Gyro rotor?
I know of the kennblatts, we use them as a basis ourselves.

But I got permission to use a carbon rotor (of 8.4 meter).
Also another propeller (not HTC or IVO).

I would like to know why you wrote 30-35 degrees (C).
Where do you have those temps?

The normal size rotor for an MTO is 8.4 meter. And if you
use 8.6 meter, you run the risk of the rotor RPMs being too low.
It has happened here (DK) recently.

Martin Koller of Austria uses a rotor of 8.5 meter, because he flies at high altitudes.
That works for him.

Mine is 8.4 meter and the RPMs are just perfect. Denmark is nearly at sea level.
But I haven't experienced 30-35 deg. C.
Hey Erik

About the Rotor length i have sport rotor with 8.0 m and as you said 8.4 standard rotor.


There is missunderstand about country of flying. Im not in Germany currently :) btw
I have IVO propeller..

Actually need to try on each rotor next week, the one onboard is 8.0. Well we ll see what will come up soon. Thanks !
 

Abid

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In Germany - do you absolutely have to use the Auto-Gyro rotor?
I know of the kennblatts, we use them as a basis ourselves.

But I got permission to use a carbon rotor (of 8.4 meter).
Also another propeller (not HTC or IVO).

I would like to know why you wrote 30-35 degrees (C).
Where do you have those temps?

The normal size rotor for an MTO is 8.4 meter. And if you
use 8.6 meter, you run the risk of the rotor RPMs being too low.
It has happened here (DK) recently.

Martin Koller of Austria uses a rotor of 8.5 meter, because he flies at high altitudes.
That works for him.

Mine is 8.4 meter and the RPMs are just perfect. Denmark is nearly at sea level.
But I haven't experienced 30-35 deg. C.

What do you mean by 8.6 m rotor Rpm gets too low and that it happened “here”.
Rotor RPM may be 330 and that’s perfectly fine.
 

rcflier

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Okay - "here" is Denmark.
Someone bought a Rotor-Tech carbon rotor of 8.6 meter for his Cavalon. Not an Auto-Gyro rotor!
And he was not satisfied. He told me the RPM's were so low, that he wouldn't fly them in winter.
I did get some figures, but I've forgotten them.
But he's no sissy - if he doesn't like it, it's not okay.
But I'm very happy with the performance of my 8.4 meter Gyro-Tech carbon rotor.
They are not from the same company - the hub bar of mine is a copy of Aversi Stella.
And the other is more like Auto-Gyro's. My blades are wider 216mm vs. 198mm.

Edit: I heard his new rotor was 8.8 meter
 
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Tyger

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And he was not satisfied. He told me the RPM's were so low, that he wouldn't fly them in winter.
I did get some figures, but I've forgotten them.
But he's no sissy - if he doesn't like it, it's not okay.
I am curious about this too. What's too low? Doesn't rotor rpm always depend on the size of the rotor and the conditions?
My rotor spins (in cruise) at 350 or so in summer, maybe 325 in winter. It's just due to the difference in air density. I don't find the fact that it's lower in the winter concerning.

When Paul Salmon set a high-altitude weight record a few years ago, he said his (Magni) rotor was spinning at over 520 rpm! There obviously is such a thing as too fast, but apparently 520 wasn't there yet on a Magni.
 
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Abid

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Okay - "here" is Denmark.
Someone bought a Rotor-Tech carbon rotor of 8.6 meter for his Cavalon. Not an Auto-Gyro rotor!
And he was not satisfied. He told me the RPM's were so low, that he wouldn't fly them in winter.
I did get some figures, but I've forgotten them.
But he's no sissy - if he doesn't like it, it's not okay.
But I'm very happy with the performance of my 8.4 meter Gyro-Tech carbon rotor.
They are not from the same company - the hub bar of mine is a copy of Aversi Stella.
And the other is more like Auto-Gyro's. My blades are wider 216mm vs. 198mm.

We tried Gyro-Tech rotor set they sent us for free kindly to test here against Averso Stella. Same day. Same machine. Same pilot and passenger. I decided to not use them. They flew fine but the takeoff distance was longer and they also did not hold out the flare (float) as much.

We use 8.8 meter rotors for high altitude but our gross weight is 1232 pounds.
However, when I go one up flight testing and I am only 150 pounds wet, my weight is only 850 pounds on the gyro with a good amount of fuel and even there I do not see a problem. Its a little floaty in thermals. That's about it. Rotor RPM is around 320 to 330.
Steve S. has an AR-1 914 8.8 meter Averso Stella with canopy. He flies it both open and enclosed. And he is around 255 pounds. He has a 800 foot dirt strip in the Midwest that he made fairly smooth by compacting it and he breaks ground in about 120 feet with 200 RPM pre-rotation with 10 gallons of fuel in 25 C weather. Prop pitched to give him 5750 RPM at 60 mph
I don't think your acquaintance is a sissy but to a trike pilot who flies in mid air conditions, all gyroplane pilots probably seem like sissies. Its all relative.
 
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rcflier

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The Averso Stella must be a very nice rotor.

And had I had the chance to try both, I might've chosen one also.

I hold you in high regard and trust your findings. I have only written of own and others experiences.

And I have flown only my own 450 kgs. gyro - with the Gyrotech rotor (my Type1 got dented in storage by someone else).

Cheers
Erik
 
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RandyV

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Dear Friends!

After ages of flying on airplanes now im new on Gyro-planes. I need your advises about the MTO Sport Classic with 914 Engine.
My main question is about the take off ground roll distance.
Imagine sea level condition with 30-35 Celsius with take off mass of roughly 450 kg include passenger and 20 liters of fuel. Also lets imagine no wind condition. What would be roughly my take off ground roll? In the POH of MTO sport take off distance called out 100 meters and there is chart about increased distance with pressure alt and temp. But i need real life experiences.
Also during the Pre-Rotation what rpm you use for short field take off?

Best regards
Maks
I have a 600 foot grass runway, 800 feet elevation, next to my house which I flew my Brako Sprint with a 912 ULS engine. Both ends are fields so there is no issue with trees to clear. Using the standard 200 RRPM, stick back and full power I used almost all of the runway to get airborne. Watching my videos it was clear that getting the rotor up to flying speed was taking the longest time. My RRPM needed to get to 280 to lift me off the field in ground effect, and would fly at 340 or so. Trying different procedures and evaluating the videos, I settled on a starting RRPM of 260, stick full forward, advance quickly to full throttle and pull the stick back after 2 seconds. Holding the stick forward for two seconds minimized the rotor slowdown versus having the stick back. Having the stick back quicker or at the start of adding full power slowed the machine acceleration because of the drag of the rotor and increased the slowing of the rotor before there was enough ground speed to begin accelerating the rotor. This procedure gets me in the air around 350 feet so plenty of room to abort if something is not right.
As for flying with your instructor I would suggest you both wear swimwear because I do not think there is any way you will get off, two up, in 250 meters of grass! ;)
RandyV
 

Vance

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I have a 600 foot grass runway, 800 feet elevation, next to my house which I flew my Brako Sprint with a 912 ULS engine. Both ends are fields so there is no issue with trees to clear. Using the standard 200 RRPM, stick back and full power I used almost all of the runway to get airborne. Watching my videos it was clear that getting the rotor up to flying speed was taking the longest time. My RRPM needed to get to 280 to lift me off the field in ground effect, and would fly at 340 or so. Trying different procedures and evaluating the videos, I settled on a starting RRPM of 260, stick full forward, advance quickly to full throttle and pull the stick back after 2 seconds. Holding the stick forward for two seconds minimized the rotor slowdown versus having the stick back. Having the stick back quicker or at the start of adding full power slowed the machine acceleration because of the drag of the rotor and increased the slowing of the rotor before there was enough ground speed to begin accelerating the rotor. This procedure gets me in the air around 350 feet so plenty of room to abort if something is not right.
As for flying with your instructor I would suggest you both wear swimwear because I do not think there is any way you will get off, two up, in 250 meters of grass! ;)
RandyV
I recommend following the Pilot’s Operating Handbook (POH) for the takeoff procedure.

The reason having the cyclic back at the beginning of the takeoff roll is to accelerate the rotor.

Holding the cyclic forward for two seconds allows the aircraft to accelerate faster because the rotor is not being accelerated and this gets you closer to too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm and a blade sailing event.

All it takes is a gust of wind at the wrong time when you are close to stalling the retreating blade.

The POH is written to keep you away from the edges of the safe flying envelope.
 

Maksimus

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I have a 600 foot grass runway, 800 feet elevation, next to my house which I flew my Brako Sprint with a 912 ULS engine. Both ends are fields so there is no issue with trees to clear. Using the standard 200 RRPM, stick back and full power I used almost all of the runway to get airborne. Watching my videos it was clear that getting the rotor up to flying speed was taking the longest time. My RRPM needed to get to 280 to lift me off the field in ground effect, and would fly at 340 or so. Trying different procedures and evaluating the videos, I settled on a starting RRPM of 260, stick full forward, advance quickly to full throttle and pull the stick back after 2 seconds. Holding the stick forward for two seconds minimized the rotor slowdown versus having the stick back. Having the stick back quicker or at the start of adding full power slowed the machine acceleration because of the drag of the rotor and increased the slowing of the rotor before there was enough ground speed to begin accelerating the rotor. This procedure gets me in the air around 350 feet so plenty of room to abort if something is not right.
As for flying with your instructor I would suggest you both wear swimwear because I do not think there is any way you will get off, two up, in 250 meters of grass! ;)
RandyV
Hi Randy.

Actually tried it at 1000 ft elevation field at 25C . 200m was quite enough for us with 914 engine. I never flown with 912 on Gyros. have a lot of flights on airplanes with 912 engine but no gyro experience. Maybe Turbo might make difference. How about your weight? and wind conditions?
 

Abid

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I have a 600 foot grass runway, 800 feet elevation, next to my house which I flew my Brako Sprint with a 912 ULS engine. Both ends are fields so there is no issue with trees to clear. Using the standard 200 RRPM, stick back and full power I used almost all of the runway to get airborne. Watching my videos it was clear that getting the rotor up to flying speed was taking the longest time. My RRPM needed to get to 280 to lift me off the field in ground effect, and would fly at 340 or so. Trying different procedures and evaluating the videos, I settled on a starting RRPM of 260, stick full forward, advance quickly to full throttle and pull the stick back after 2 seconds. Holding the stick forward for two seconds minimized the rotor slowdown versus having the stick back. Having the stick back quicker or at the start of adding full power slowed the machine acceleration because of the drag of the rotor and increased the slowing of the rotor before there was enough ground speed to begin accelerating the rotor. This procedure gets me in the air around 350 feet so plenty of room to abort if something is not right.
As for flying with your instructor I would suggest you both wear swimwear because I do not think there is any way you will get off, two up, in 250 meters of grass! ;)
RandyV

Randy you are playing with fire there. One gust and you can total that gyroplane with Blade Sailing.
Beyond 230 RRPM you really don't get much advantage. I am shocked that your Sprint with a 912ULS is taking 600 feet to break ground. What size are your rotors? Something isn't right. Or your rotor pitch is set incorrectly.
May be I need to make some videos in taking off an AR-1 one up with 9-10 gallons of gas with a 914 and letting it climb up at 45 knots to clear 50 foot and then going to 55 knots for Vy.
 

Abid

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Hi Randy.

Actually tried it at 1000 ft elevation field at 25C . 200m was quite enough for us with 914 engine. I never flown with 912 on Gyros. have a lot of flights on airplanes with 912 engine but no gyro experience. Maybe Turbo might make difference. How about your weight? and wind conditions?

With 912ULS on these 2 seat gyroplanes it depends on how many big Macs you and your misses eat. I am 150 pounds with clothes on. I can get away with it
 
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