MTO SPORT 2017 N615MW

All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Have you considered that possibly most of that membership fleet is largely inactive. Meaning last time they flew the current year had not rolled around yet. Anyone who is active should consider third party liability insurance at least.
PRA recommends liability insurance for all pilots and all types of aircraft. Our rates would drop by market forces if they did.

I'm just explaining my observations and those I've talked to that don't have insurance and why.
And my experience with my clients collecting who have won or lost cases in court and which clients got sued.
They do not feel they are endangering buildings or anyone but themselves as they do not fly over them.
 

Tyger

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I must say, not how I would choose to conduct myself, I believe that if I cause damage/injury the party who suffers a loss or injury should have the right to be compensated.

I have always, and will always believe that I have a moral obligation to protect others against me errors or omissions.
Each nation must follow its own path .. but this is really sticking the finger up at someone who has already experienced a loss not of their fault.
The flip side of that, in the US, is that many lawyers will sue those who have insurance, even though they know the person to be not at fault, solely because they think insurance will settle. A settlement will usually cost the insurance company less than even a completely successful (zero liability found) defense at trial.
What they do in many other countries (eg the UK) is force the losing side to pay the legal costs, which makes such frivolous lawsuits much less likely; but that is not the case here.
 

All_In

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Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
The flip side of that, in the US, is that many lawyers will sue those who have insurance, even though they know the person to be not at fault, solely because they think insurance will settle. A settlement will usually cost the insurance company less than even a completely successful (zero liability found) defense at trial.
What they do in many other countries (eg the UK) is force the losing side to pay the legal costs, which makes such frivolous lawsuits much less likely; but that is not the case here.
Thank you Tyler, I should have mentioned the other side of the coin. Good one!
 
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All_In

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Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
PS:
For a perspective = I suspect 1/2 the laws suits are furious settlement fishing trips.
 

JETLAG03

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Hi John, I must thank you for explaining in detail the situation regarding home built gyros in the US and their insurance status. I admire your replies on a subject that I am sure you knew would be viewed in a poor light by some, myself included, but we must remember, you are the messenger and not responsible.

I further agree with Tyler regards the legal professions some what dubious stance with regards to litigation. In the UK for more years than I remember, now happening in France, there are sectors of the legal profession we refer to as "ambulance chasers" who will turn up at a hospital bed hours after an accident offering no win/no fee representation.

Again, each coin has two sides, for the less rich among us this offers a possibility of redress against the culpable, but, on the other side of the coin, must increase the overall costs to those who have the insurance policies in the first instance.

Insurance also reduces per unit cost, as John suggests with economies of size/volume and probably the only way that costs can be reduced is if all enter into the insurance group.

The attitude of "I have no assets so you cannot make a claim against me or my estate" is obviously not a secret in the US, and they prefer it would seem, to maintain the status quo. That is an issue for the US, but your enormous insurance prices may well be as a direct result of your own stance.

Would I attend a "fly in" knowing that many/most of the pilots have no insurance, not a chance.

I reiterate, I respect a nations right to conduct their affairs as they see fit within their nation, but I cannot agree with them on a basis honest moral level.

repectfully

phil (de fer)
 

Tyger

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The attitude of "I have no assets so you cannot make a claim against me or my estate" is obviously not a secret in the US, and they prefer it would seem, to maintain the status quo. That is an issue for the US, but your enormous insurance prices may well be as a direct result of your own stance.
In the car industry, this may be true for liability because of "no fault" and the notion that "someone has to pay", when damage is caused by an uninsured person. That's why US states all mandate auto liability insurance (but not collision damage, for example). Some folks ignore that law, driving illegally without insurance, but the people they hit still get paid, driving up costs for those obeying the law.
But it's hard to see how uninsured people drive up the costs for others in less regulated/mandated insurance markets. For example, if my house burns down and I have no insurance, the rebuilding cost is on me... how does that drive your insurance cost up? Or if my car gets stolen, but I've only insured it for liability, I'll have to get myself a new car, but that won't affect the cost of your theft insurance one jot.

It seems to me that all insurance companies make pretty good profits by trying to make sure that the total cost of any damages is much less than the total price of premiums. That's their business model. If they feel that they cannot do that, they just leave the market (witness that company that issued the Cavalon policies, noted above).
 

JETLAG03

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Hi @Tyger I probably badly explained my thinking "driving up costs to insured folks is possibly caused by over eager zealous legal eagles" I didn't mean uninsured drive up costs, but, higher numbers taking insurance will surely by the power of bulk, help drive down costs.

The buisiness model you have problems with is the same buisiness model of every commercial enterprise, if they don't make money ... they don't play.

Sadly as your example with non insured car drivers, there will always be those who fail or refuse to accept their moral obligations to society.

phil
 

JETLAG03

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Ammendment to my posting #87

Ininsured drivers must drive up costs to insured drivers as the insurance companies pay out more receiving a smaller pool of investors (insured) therefore each within the insurance pool must pay more to balance the books.

Your analagy re house is not relevant as losses costs experienced with your own loss and re-investment does not effect others ... surely.

but I am considering the financial effects on an innocent party inflicted by an uninsured person who damages more than themselves or their own property.

phil
 

WaspAir

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stopped caring at 1000
Despite the legal possibilities the system presents here, not everybody in the U.S. does a cold amoral mercenary calculation of the cost/benefit of insurance vs. bankruptcy and judgment-proof low assets status. There are plenty of Americans who agree that it would be immoral to subject others to risks we create, and who buy insurance with that in mind.
 
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