Mosquito - Fatal 21.9.14

bryancobb

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Aeronautical Decision Making. I hate acronyms.
 

thomasant

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I am a natural and can pretty much fly anything without a lick of training as long as a person who knows what they are doing gets the engines going, and as long as an emergency doesn't pop up.
I would have a helicopter upside down and 5 miles off course within 5 minutes of entering the clouds.
I don't think you should have a problem flying safely under any circumstance if you are a "natural" that can pretty much fly "anything" without a "lick of training".

Maybe some regular recurrent proficiency training is not a bad idea after all, not just for the "naturals", but for all pilots. Just wondering.
 

bryancobb

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I don't think you should have a problem flying safely under any circumstance if you are a "natural" that can pretty much fly "anything" without a "lick of training".

Maybe some regular recurrent proficiency training is not a bad idea after all, not just for the "naturals", but for all pilots. Just wondering.
Keep in mind Tomas,

I typed those words in answer to a friend, Todd, where we were debating the value of a piece of paper with HELICOPTER on it.

What I was trying to illustrate to Todd, is...He's a "natural" and I'm a "natural." Maybe people like us could cheat death and teach ourselves to fly one but it's NOT a good idea, even for us. Those 40 hours spent getting the rating is like the airbag in your car. It's expensive, you most likely will never need most of it, but MAN-O-MAN if you ever do, you'll be glad you have it.

I was saying all this to support statement that...From a manufacturer's point of view, selling a helicopter that can be legally flown without a license, to a person who does not PROVE to the manufacturer they already have the proficiency to fly it in a reasonably safe manner, may not be the best move, for the longevity of the company. Even Fetters in the Mini-500 days, would not send your T/R gearbox and blades until he had proof that the buyer had the rating. As far as I know, Every single Mini-500 that had an airworthiness certificate also required the pilot to be appropriately rated. Now many people did a fraudulent "End-Run" around Dennis' policy and got "their helicopter buddy" to get their withheld T/R stuff for them. However, Fetters had protected his company and demonstrated due diligence.

In the case of the Mosquitoes, they seem to have gotten lucky so far because the accidents among the ultralight FAR Part 103 models seem to have gotten in the hands of "naturals" so the wrecks have been few.

The ultralight Mosquitoes are an engineering marvel. They have proven that it only takes 254# of stuff to make a safe, flyable helicopter. I want one! An "AIR" would fit nicely into my flying style. The idea of my own MAGIC CARPET has always gotten me excited.
 

StanFoster

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Even though I trained myself go fly a gyro....I sought full training in a helicopter, got my helicopter rating even though it wasn't required to fly my Helicycle.


I consider myself a "natural" with gun shooting , but knew I was not a "natural" at flying helicopters. I had this gut feeling that my type of flying in a helicopter would eventually get me if I had mechanical problems . My gut feeling started taking out the fun of the best flying I had ever experienced in my life. I put way over 250 of those awesome experiences on YouTube and can now look at them as a retired helicopter pilot and say. "Been there...done that".......and now go my new direction where I am much more relaxed and a "natural" at!
 

birdy

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Not many things humans are natural at, cept multiplien and thinkn they can control the planet.
But theres one thing i know for sure, theres no such thing asa natural flyer, unless you broke outa an egg.
 

thomasant

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Bryan,

I'm sorry; I did not mean to pick on you personally. I just pick on the statements that I perceive to be a bit misleading to me. The term "natural" pilot for me is one, and Birdy, with his incredible flying abilities and thousands of hours, has clarified it quite well when he stated, "theres no such thing asa natural flyer, unless you broke outa an egg."

During the many years that I spent flying helicopters in the Indian military, what surprised a lot of us was that most of the accidents and fatalities occurred to the ones that were referred to as "naturals".

IMHO, there is no substitute for good, recurrent training. Even though we received a great deal of that, it did not stop me personally from getting into some terrible situations, just due to plain over-confidence and "it won't happen to me" attitude.

Thank you Stan, for posting the fact that you, despite your great skills at flying the gyro, sought adequate training to fly your Helicycle, even though you were not required to do so. It makes me feel good to read that, because I took training to learn to fly my tandem Air Command, even though I was not required to do so.
 

Vance

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Naturaly Ignorant!

Naturaly Ignorant!

My greatest nemesis in flying continues to be overconfidence.

I imagine because of a positive flying adventure that I know how to handle things.

I don’t know the things I don’t know so I seek recurrent training in the hopes of learning things before my ignorance creates a situation that my luck doesn’t manage.

There are lots of dead pilots who imagined they were naturals.

It doesn’t take a lot of reading of the NTSB reports to see that overconfidence killed many natural pilots.

My arrogance may never outpace my luck.

That does not make my survival evidence of skill or make me a natural.

It just means my luck has outpaced my ignorance.

Rotorcraft have a bad enough reputation without “naturals” going against everything we have learned about aviation safety and feeling minimal training is all they need to be a safe pilot.

Just because there are pilots out there making mistakes that I know enough not to make does make me a good pilot who doesn’t need training.

I have learned from CFIs who knew less and were less skilled than I because arrogance has not closed my mind.

Thank you, Vance
 

birdy

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The term 'natural' is generaly used wen describen somome who ' clicks' early.
Very easy to train, very receptive to advice from sumone with experiance, and most importantly, understands that HE is in command, and knows the responsabilities that come with it.
I know such a bloke.
His cfi said he was good to solo in his 912 single seat gyro, after just 3 hours instruction.
Wot he ment was, he had tuned into the machine, his responces and reactions were spoton and he knew how much control input and wen.
IOW, his grey cells had tuned into controling a mechanical device.

But, he knew jac**** bout 'flyn'.
Luckily, because of his lack of ego and willingness to learn, he understood the difference.
 

500e

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Love it how true, but even some of them don't survive 1st flight

thomasant
"theres no such thing asa natural flier, unless you broke outa an egg."
 

bryancobb

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Exactly

Exactly

...natural=' clicks' early,
natural=Very easy to train, natural=very receptive to advice from sumone with experiance, natural=tuned into the machine, natural= responces and reactions were spoton, natural=how much control input and wen.
IOW, his grey cells had tuned into controling a mechanical device.

But, he knew jac**** bout 'flyn'.
....
Exactly what I feel "a natural" is. If you teach yourself to fly, feel invincible, and think you already know everything, then you are just an lucky, arrogant [email protected]$$.
 

PW_Plack

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How's that old country song go?

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way...


I've seen some people who faced challenges learning aviation tasks go on to become better pilots for it. Vance is a great example. I also think those of us who have our dreams of flight delayed by financial issues, and spend a few years watching the mishaps of others, benefit from the wait, frustrating as it is.

The stereotype of doctors, dentists and other high-income professionals who can write a check for a Bonanza or Cirrus and don't take it seriously as a result looks plausible to me in explaining some of the accidents in those types.
 
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Money spent on Initial (and recurrent) training is the best money you can spend in aviation. I am always suprised by the number of Helicopter accidents that result in fatalities that COULD HAVE/SHOULD HAVE been survivable had the pilot received good training (including recurrent training!!) Recently in Missouri we had two crashes from RUNNING OUT OF FUEL!! These were pilots that knew they were low on fuel but continued the flights anyway, both did not enter an autorotation correctly/quickly enough and got a blade stall - literally falling out of the sky!! These were pilots that had lots of hours but did not respond correctly when the powerplant quit, again recurrent training should ALWAYS include autorotations. Biennial flight reviews should concentrate on AUTOROTATIONS. When I train Helicopter students we concentrate on the maneuvers that require a high degree of skill, specifically hovering, hovering in high winds, sideways flight from a hover, backing the aircraft up, pirouettes, hovering autos, slope landings, quick stops, max performance takeoffs, go-arounds (there was a recent fatal crash in texas with an EMS pilot that did not correctly execute a go-around at night) and most importantly, LOTS of AUTOROTATIONS. (you don't learn a lot about flying the helicopter by flying from airport A to airport B and back) You learn a lot by spending time with an instructor, and you certainly want to be with an instructor when mistakes are made, and you WILL make mistakes!! I happen to think that you learn as much or more from your mistakes than you do from your success. Your instructor should review what the correct response should have been when you make an error (not enough left pedal, didn't get you collective pulled in early enough, pedal turn into a strong left crosswind, etc.) The main purpose of the flight instructor is to keep you safe until you are proficient with the aircraft. Learning alone in the aircraft by trial and error is very risky business!!
 

birdy

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Exactly what I feel "a natural" is. If you teach yourself to fly, feel invincible, and think you already know everything, then you are just an lucky, arrogant [email protected]$$.
Couldnt agree more. ;)
 
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