Mosquito - Fatal 21.9.14

cburg

Newbie
“When in doubt...auto out.

Sounds like it...ran out of gas, brief moment of denial, hesitation on the collective, and that's it, game over. Autorotations train you to filter out the denial.

Any idea as to what kind of blade inertia on the Mosquito, i.e. how much time to get the collective down before its too late?
 
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When you build a Helicycle, they won't give you your elastomeric bearings until you show you have a solo endorsement for an R22 in your logbook, or a helicopter rating.
 

cburg

Newbie
Which is a good policy, but when buying one second hand it's up to the owner. It's easy for a reckless person to cut corners. If they are that kind of person, they will do it.

I can't count how many trike guys that decided to get instruction…AFTER…they’ve crashed some trike they bought on Barnstormers.


When you build a Helicycle, they won't give you your elastomeric bearings until you show you have a solo endorsement for an R22 in your logbook, or a helicopter rating.
 
I have nothing but praise for John U. and his masterpiece he calls the Mosquito. It is a marvel.

Here's the facts though. There is only 2 possible reasons for designing and marketing a helicopter that falls under FAR Part 103:
1) Bragging rights - "People say it's impossible to create a flyable helicopter under 254 pounds. B.S. I did it.
2) To allow untrained people who have no business leaving the ground in a helicopter, to do it.

That's it. This accident is sad, but it is precisely what the helicopter was designed for. He had no reason to get any training. Yes that's dumb, but if John U., Dwight, and Innovator have a true desire to have the fleet have a good safety record, then they should insist that every Mosquito be heavy enough to NOT be an ultralight, and they should insist that DAR's put the statement in the Program Letter that says, Pilot of this aircraft must hold at least a Private Pilot Rotorcraft Helicopter rating and have a current Medical, and a current Flight Review that was accomplished IN A HELICOPTER.

Another statement pertaining to the NTSB and FAA running away from this accident. We cannot have our cake and eat it too. The privilege of flying without and license or training makes us "self-policing and self-investigating." If we want access to the expert investigators, we can always get an N-Number and fly under GA rules.
I don't have a Helicopter rating and have logged about 50 hours in the Helicycle - one of them a real auto to the ground in very bad conditions. Had 80 hours total in Brantly before that with probably 150 autorotation practices. You don't need a Helicopter rating or a medical to safely fly a helicopter. You can either do it or you can't. I have seen plenty of "rated" pilots crash helicopters. The piece of paper that said they passed a check ride meant nothing.
 

Jincamty

Magic free zone
I don't have a Helicopter rating and have logged about 50 hours in the Helicycle - one of them a real auto to the ground in very bad conditions. Had 80 hours total in Brantly before that with probably 150 autorotation practices. You don't need a Helicopter rating or a medical to safely fly a helicopter. You can either do it or you can't. I have seen plenty of "rated" pilots crash helicopters. The piece of paper that said they passed a check ride meant nothing.
....I'll pretend I didn't read that. (haha ;-)

Well done.

(you know this forum is monitored by the authorities? (NZ one anyway))

Cheers Cam.
 

bryancobb

Junior Member
... You don't need a Helicopter rating or a medical to safely fly a helicopter...
I agree. The hours of TRAINING is what I was getting at. The medical I mentioned is REQUIRED to solo. That's the only reason I listed a medical as one of the minimum requirements. I also framed my opinion in the box "If Innovator wants to have an exemplary safety record."

I am a natural and can pretty much fly anything without a lick of training as long as a person who knows what they are doing gets the engines going, and as long as an emergency doesn't pop up. I suspect you are one of these too.

Even for people like you and I, self teaching puts us on the risky side of statistics. Training, like education, is never a mistake.

I long for the days when pilots have the freedom to do whatever they want to.
 

birdy

Newbie
You don't need a Helicopter rating or a medical to safely fly a helicopter. You can either do it or you can't. I have seen plenty of "rated" pilots crash helicopters. The piece of paper that said they passed a check ride meant nothing.
Same thing down ere apparently. :(
Seems the only thing a heli licence holder gains is an attitude.
 

birdy

Newbie
Dunno wot narcissism is, but iv seen good humble ground dwelln blokes suddenly think their s**t dont stink, just after getn the heli licence.

Any you licenced choppy pilots know wot happens wen your handed that pice o paper?
 

Chopper Reid

Senior Member
I was unaware that the Mosquito people would actually sell you a machine without requiring this training. Yes, I know it's not required in an ultralight, but from a "cover your ass" standpoint, it would make sense to require it of every purchaser.

-John
About 6 months ago I rang a crowd importing Robinsons into Australia & asked would they deliver a new R22 to me knowing I did NOT have a helicopter license. Their response was that it wasnt their problem who had a license, just as long as the paperwork was done & I paid the moneys they didnt give a rip who was going to be flying it !!
 

bryancobb

Junior Member
The paper or certificate is worthless. The 40+ hours of training is golden when it comes to keeping the pilot from bouncing a cheque at the Rotorcraft Pilot Bank.
 

birdy

Newbie
Their response was that it wasnt their problem who had a license, just as long as the paperwork was done & I paid the moneys they didnt give a rip who was going to be flying it !!
And nor they should.
Dose your auto dealer ask to see your licence?
 

bryancobb

Junior Member
Their response was that it wasnt their problem who had a license, just as long as the paperwork was done & I paid the moneys they didnt give a rip who was going to be flying it !!
And nor they should.
Dose your auto dealer ask to see your licence?
You have a very valid point. Here's the things that change that a little...

* Getting injured, maimed, or killed in a car is SOCIALLY-ACCEPTABLE so the public, in general does not instantly turn their eyes toward the manufacturer every time an injury or fatality happens.

* The customer-base and statistical sample is much, much larger for highway vehicles so when an injury or fatality does happen, it doesn't affect the attitude of potential buyers so negatively.

An aircraft manufacturer is in a much more precarious position that GM or Ford. The statistics can turn on a dime. GM or Ford is like trying to do a 180 with a HUGE aircraft carrier.

This is why the safety record for aircraft is closely watched and controlled by the factory. They have the ability to affect the statistics significantly. My buddy Phil Colaco bought a factory new R-44 a few years ago. They would not even allow him to come pick up his own helicopter despite having a few hundred hours on his license. Their "numbers" indicated that rich folks were plopping down the money and killing themselves on the way home. To make the numbers better (which affects their "bottom line"), they wrote a policy of who is allowed to pick up a newly purchased machine. Phil had to hire a guy with more experience to go with him and sign for the keys and be the PIC on the trip home to Georgia.

Unfortunately, on the way home, Phil had a heart-attack and died in the hotel in Texas so he never got to see his shiny new R-44 in Georgia. It's very possible that if Mike Russell had not been with him, Phil may have croaked in flight and made Robinson's statistics much worse, and adding to the list of rich guys on the way home in a new helicopter.
 
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birdy

Newbie
Yep, from a manufacturers point of view its a good idea to sell to sumone with at least sum brain power, ( a licence generaly means youv had sum duel time ), but, it dont mean the pilots go,n to take responsability for everythn wen he,s PIC.
 

thomasant

Member
From the FAA Regs.

From the FAA Regs.

IMHO, The PIC should take the responsibility. Else he/she should not be the PIC.;)

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
 

thomasant

Member
The paper or certificate is worthless. The 40+ hours of training is golden when it comes to keeping the pilot from bouncing a cheque at the Rotorcraft Pilot Bank.
Not sure what you mean by the certificate being worthless. I hold a Commercial Helicopter certificate and an Instrument rating. With this certificate I could, if I choose to, make a living flying helicopters. If I do so, then the certificate is at the least, worth my livelihood.;)
 

birdy

Newbie
I agree Antony, the tesponsability rest on him ( PIC).
Wether he accepts it is a gauge of how seroiuse he is bout flyn.
 

bryancobb

Junior Member
...Not sure what you mean by the certificate being worthless....
I was using "worthless" only in context...In the context of determining if a particular person is a good pilot or not.

I would speculate that YOUR certificate would prove worthless if you took off on long cross country, in zero/zero vis and the whole route was in the soup. That is unless you have done actual IMC flying on a frequent basis. I don't know very many heli guys with and IFR ticket that ever fly in IMC after they get the rating. (Exept military)
I would have a helicopter upside down and 5 miles off course within 5 minutes of entering the clouds. I haven't filed IFR for a helicopter flight since 1988, and the last time I flew in clouds other than a quick ascent to "on top" was in 1997.
 
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thomasant

Member
Birdy, Bryan, Thanks for clarifying.

Kind of tough for me sometimes to read between the lines. It all boils down to good ADM.
 
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