Misrepresentaion - CORRECTION!!!

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
3,388
Location
Whitewater KS
Aircraft
Butterfly Aurora N5560Z / Titanium Explorer N456TE & N488TE/ - trained in MTOsport 446QT/488FB
Total Flight Time
1023
This inaccurate statement below ( in BOLD) .... from another thread discussion on rotor systems really irritated me ... pretty sad coming from some one I respect & whose product I applaud! ... I sat on it for a week & now decided it needs to be addressed!

"We manufacture our machines in the US when we can easily go to India or China where we can manufacture the same machine for $15k less per unit at least. Others certainly use this strategy. Titanium with a Chinese factory, AutoGyro with composites from factory in Slovenia in Eastern Europe same one as Trixy gyro uses. My personal commitment to US manufacturing is not just lip service and beat my chest type."

Here are the FACTS about the manufacture of the Titanium Explorer gyroplane!

1. Fully built & assembled, test flown IN AUSTRALIA ... by Australians!

2. TAG Aviation carbon composite rotor blades on a carbon spar ...FULLY MADE IN AUSTRALIA by a helicopter rotor maker!

3.THERE IS NO "CHINESE factory" building the gyroplane!

4. The Titanium metal components are made in the Ti. metal factory located in China ... where Boeing,Airbus & RollsRoyce engine aircraft components are also manufactured ... it is one of the worlds top Ti metal welding facilities with the largest annealing oven ... ensuring the metal is tempered properly!

5. I f some one reading this has a problem trusting components made in China .... I expect you will not fly in Boeing Airbus & RollsRoyce products without GREAT anxiety ... "because they are made-in-China"!!!!:lol::wacko:

6. The Titanium components are expensive ... paid for in U$ .... trust me .....that does NOT make a cheap gyroplane!

7. When trying to find Australian composite businesses to make the bodies, tails ...... as soon as the word "for aircraft" was uttered ...GO AWAY NO WAY!!! ... no one would do it "in country" ... due to the litigious system ...as we have in good oleUSA! ... so the body composite work , seats & seat covers are also done by reputable businesses in China!

THUS in the manufacture of Titanium Explorer gyroplanes ...YES - some of the components come from manufacturers located in China! ..... this does NOT / should NOT equate with the " made in China" negative stereotype insinuated by the "I make as much-as-possible" in USA ...not in China / Slovenia ...etc .... rather than saving money by outsourcing to 2nd world countries!

SHAME on you!

:boink:
 
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Chris:
That was me and I did not mean that quality of components or welding are low. I simply stated what exactly was told to me by Neil way before you became the distributor on a 3 hour phone call.
The manufacturing process of the
1) Titanium frame and
2) composite body, seats and tail according to him as I remember were done in China not Australia.
3) Rotor is manufactured in Australia
4) Neil then assembles the gyroplane from these components in Australia

This is in no means to imply a quality issue. I choose to manufacture those components in the US in our own facility. That is my choice. It does not mean contract manufacturing the same elsewhere or sub-contracting assemblies somewhere else even in another country automatically means lower quality. That is not what I was meaning to say and hope its clear here.
If the above 4 points are not correct, please correct them but that is what Neil told me and that is what he told PRA Now this was indeed in 2014 (may be early 2015?) so something may have changed but main point being that I was not talking about quality. I was simply stating what we do (manufacturing in the US with our own people) because of course the "context was that Kolibri" was stating something to the effect that SC rotors are made here and not in Poland and all modern gyroplanes are Euro blah blah blah and don't know how to use quality aircraft stuff. Obviously that is not quite true.
 
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Abid ... your points 1-4 ... are exactly what I stated in my 1,2,4 &7 ........ NO your statement SAID "Titanium with a Chinese factory" ...... & you DID by implication suggest ...the Titanium gyro was made in China ..to save money vs the way you did it all in USA ...even though you could save allot by outsourcing components! ...OK I'll put it down to sloppy non-specific writing on your part! ... but still the newbies reading such statements will get a skewed view!:whip:
 
If you two get in a fist fight at Bensen Days, I got $10 on the girl.
Yeah, and I mean Chris !!!
 
GyrOZprey;n1130084 said:
Abid ... your points 1-4 ... are exactly what I stated in my 1,2,4 &7 ........ NO your statement SAID "Titanium with a Chinese factory" ...... & you DID by implication suggest ...the Titanium gyro was made in China ..to save money vs the way you did it all in USA ...even though you could save allot by outsourcing components! ...OK I'll put it down to sloppy non-specific writing on your part! ... but still the newbies reading such statements will get a skewed view!:whip:

Ah I see how you took it to mean what you think. Well I did not mean its a gyroplane factory but it is indeed a factory making components for OEMs Titanium gyro being one.
About the money spent making components in China ... Chris I can assure you one of the reasons for going to these places is to save cost. No doubt about it. And that is BUSINESS. Nothing wrong with it. Its Capitalism. It is not only expensive, but also difficult and cumbersome to do manufacturing in the US or even in Germany or France. Everyone has their tails between their legs here afraid of liability and customers are happy to sue on the slightest hint. I don't agree with such litigation and attitude but that is where our society is. Australia is about as bad as the US as you know in that regard
 
gyrojake;n1130085 said:
If you two get in a fist fight at Bensen Days, I got $10 on the girl.
Yeah, and I mean Chris !!!

Haha. I love Chris. You kidding me. I would have bet $100 on her against me. You got to recognize an opportunity Jake.
 
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The fit and finish of the Titanium Explorer is often the thing most people remark about.

It would be hard to imagine a quality issue.

Your adventures without mishaps have certainly demonstrated the quality of The Titanium Explorer.

I hope to see you at Bensen Days and I would be grateful for an opportunity to fly with you again so I can better answer my client’s questions. It seems they are all trying to understand the differences of the various tandems.

I also would like to be able to transition people from The Predator to a Titanium Explorer and that takes some more flight time.
 
Yes there are quality products made by the Chinese,and there is still stuff made in china that is junk. I'm sure that in a few

years that stigma will probably be completely gone and they will be recognized as a quality product producing nation.

Its about economics,as I stated in my early thread I saved about 65% by buying the carbon fiber rotors and aluminium parts from Poland.

And the quality is as good as made in USA ,unfortunately the price difference can be because of the liability issues here in

this country. I admire Fara for making as much as he can here in this country,but there are some things you just cant afford to buy here.
 
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Pardon a question from the uninformed (I'm not trying to rattle cages; I really don't know what's going on, and I would like to know). If the aircraft is

1. Fully built & assembled, test flown IN AUSTRALIA ... by Australians!

how does it get licensed in the USA?
 
WaspAir;n1130128 said:
Pardon a question from the uninformed (I'm not trying to rattle cages; I really don't know what's going on, and I would like to know). If the aircraft is

1. Fully built & assembled, test flown IN AUSTRALIA ... by Australians!

how does it get licensed in the USA?

Factory assist & group build??
 
as I stated in my early thread I saved about 65% by buying the carbon fiber rotors and aluminium parts from Poland.

And the quality is as good as made in USA
Well, you certainly hope so. Time will tell . . .
Good luck, Kolibri
 
Is it true that the Titanium Explorer can haul more weight than the other 912 powered machines ?

Why would that be ?
 
CLS447;n1130166 said:
Is it true that the Titanium Explorer can haul more weight than the other 912 powered machines ?

Why would that be ?

The empty weight of the 912 version is 590 lb , the 914 one 600lb !!! the rated cargo loading ...... 700 lb ... make up a combination of fuel ( tank size is max 23gal) & 2 passengers ... (with Jim & I =500# ) & what is stowed in luggage pods!

The simple fact of power vs load in gyros ... the more load the less you can do ...fun flying! Yes safe to TO ... fly around with normal conservative manouvers and land ..... basically go A-B! ... to feel good about going low & yank & bank & have rapid climb-out performance on hot days ... NO .... i don't think anyone can or would to choose to fly any of the 912 powered machines with a heavy passenger ... in that manner!

I have had great performance in my 912 TE ... with just me, full fuel & full luggage load! Taking passengers in the heat of summer & at high elevations is a pilot challenge with a 912 ... that's why my new demo machine is a 914 with the highlift / longer rotor (28ft vs 27.3) I used the long rotor & 6 blade E-prop on my 912 TE at Mentone to increase my comfort level with flying big passengers!
 
All_In;n1130130 said:
Factory assist & group build??

AS I have been back & forth to Australia several times a year recent years ... I have been involved in building several TE's ... like the Magni guys ( Dayton & customers) building Magni's do ... at the home-country factory! ... The fully flight-tested complete machines are then shipped as completed units! ( still eligible for 51% EAB ...as no FAA rules specify "where" the machine is built ... just who! )

One of the sales barriers to marketing Titaniums under US / Canadian FAA 51% "kit-build" rules ... is customers wanting Repairman certs on their machine ... would need to do a 2 week trip to Australia ... as do those building some Magnis ... enjoy an Italian holiday while building their machine!

There will be a true FAA kit version with build manual available later in 2018 ... & I should have plenty of experience by then ( & a home facility) to supervise a true build assist on US soil!
TAG Aviation has had plenty of business world-wide to keep them busy selling fully built/tested units .... the time & energy to develop the kit& instructions for a limited US market has had to take a backseat ..while orders are filled!

Please keep the good ?'s coming ...so the information gets out to those who need it!
 
Hi Chris

Can you clarify the status of new aircraft built in the factory by the factory and shipped here when the owner does not go over to do it? It seems it would end up being Exhibition Experimental. How is that comparatively restrictive category avoided for those who do not go to Australia?

/Ed
 
So the Explorer has a lower empty weight than the other Euro machines at 590 & 600 ?

What is the max load & how does it compare with others ?
 
Simple ... to date I build & registered as builder/owner ... fly it for a while & sell a used machine! ....all legit ... just as done with the TX Magni's!

I cannot compare weights ..... do your own research! I know what my machines weighed on scales ..... I did not have access to other brands "empty" machines to compare on those same scales!

Simple math 600 + 700 = 1300 MTOW ..... look at the website stats for the others!:biggrin:
 
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Wow... Post after Post after Post... Let's look at the elephant in the room.... The AR-1

Claim: US Manufactured" - Just the Pod... Rotor system - Parlez-vous français? Do you "beat your chest" about your French rotor system???
Almost every Mfg. uses Rotax (not US)
So if I build a Magni in my garage, is that "US Manufactured"? (Awesome machine BTW)

The Pod frame... Stainless Steel - Less expensive than 4130 or Titanium. Structural stainless does not appear in aviation except for gyros. Stainless cracks over time with special equipment needed for detection.
Look at the fuel system with hoses sticking out, multiple points of failure and a sump that is mounted between the frame and ground!! The eye candy looks great, until.... pealing away the cover a bit.
Time to come clean with your claims about other gyros and take a good look at flag you fly!

US made Pod and Rotor systems?
Sport Copter (Another set of awesome machines) & RFD (blade production has moved)
Lets take the SC-II - 100% made in the US!! ( Do I hear Tarzan??!!!)
 
perbgyro;n1130287 said:
Wow... Post after Post after Post... Let's look at the elephant in the room.... The AR-1

Claim: US Manufactured" - Just the Pod... Rotor system - Parlez-vous français? Do you "beat your chest" about your French rotor system???
Almost every Mfg. uses Rotax (not US)
So if I build a Magni in my garage, is that "US Manufactured"? (Awesome machine BTW)

The Pod frame... Stainless Steel - Less expensive than 4130 or Titanium. Structural stainless does not appear in aviation except for gyros. Stainless cracks over time with special equipment needed for detection.
Look at the fuel system with hoses sticking out, multiple points of failure and a sump that is mounted between the frame and ground!! The eye candy looks great, until.... pealing away the cover a bit.
Time to come clean with your claims about other gyros and take a good look at flag you fly!

US made Pod and Rotor systems?
Sport Copter (Another set of awesome machines) & RFD (blade production has moved)
Lets take the SC-II - 100% made in the US!! ( Do I hear Tarzan??!!!)

What are you talking about Paul? I am not understanding your point overall really.
When you assemble your Magni kit in your garage your manufacturing was mainly done in Italy not the US obviously. You didn't manufacture any part of it. You built it. I don't know what that has to do with the price of coffee.

FYI: Stainless Steel is not less expensive than 4130. Its more expensive. 4130 has to be treated for rust proofing inside and powder coated outside that is extra labor and that is what can make it the same as Stainless Steel, may be. 4130 is much easier to drill and weld compared to Stainless as well. It does not require back purge during welding and its co-efficient of linear expansion is almost 60% of stainless steel. Done two other aircraft designs in 4130 before in my career so I know quite well the ins and outs of both. There is this thing called engineering. When you use a material you engineer with its capabilities. Stainless steel gyro frame will have to be 12 to 14% heavier than 4130 frame to get the same life and strength. 4130 rusts and requires baroscope inspections inside the tubing because powder coat hides the rust from the inside well. Aluminum corrodes and there are plenty of Aluminum inspection AD's for wing spars and struts in GA. You should ideally never powder coat Stainless steel because that will actually make it start rusting yet some manufacturers do that. You should also weld Stainless with back purge or clear oxygen out of the back side somehow. Yet no big gyro manufactures did that so far. You have to do this properly or its not the right way to weld Stainless structures. Stainless is used in aerospace for sure but you don't know it. But all that said when you are ready to order an AR-1, ask for 4130 frame, we will do it for you for a price. That should satisfy you.
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/A...00-Cr-Mo-Steel

Of course we use Rotax engine, so does everyone pretty much in production gyroplanes right now. Not about to start using Viking or Yamaha engines. Seen enough to know where not to go.
We happen to use Averso rotor because its the best one we have found. Rotor system is not the largest cost nor the most complex component in manufacturing a gyroplane. Its however a critical one.

We actually then make everything else of significance in house with 12 US employees in the shop and a few select local small businesses as our partners for things like seat cushions, CNC, powder coating, metallurgical heat treatments and plating etc., We make all composites, all frame, rotor head, rotor brake, pre-rotator parts, control system parts, cable assemblies, fuel tanks, front nose gear, main landing gear, axle assemblies, disc brake rotors, exhaust system, seat upholstery, wiring harness, windshields, decals. We do welding, composite layup, body work and painting, drawings in SW and design and make sure that even the main Stainless Steel tubing we get for the frame is US manufactured (more expensive than Chinese or Taiwanese manufactured Stainless tubing) and use AN hardware supplied from US manufacturers. Make our own pre-rotator ring gears, shafts and joints even. Use Matco brakes that are US made.

And yes the sump is mounted at the lowest point like its supposed to be like a gascolator would be at the lowest point on the firewall in an airplane. For crash worthiness you engineer the attachment to the structure such that the attachment bracket bends off and the tank or gascolator can move to the side or up within reason to prevent rupture. Is your point if you crash the crap out of the gyroplane, the sump will break off. Yes possibly so one should get proper training and don't smash it in. Its not like that frame design and landing gear has not fallen straight down from 15 feet without breaking when a student locked up and survived and was able to taxi back with a bent frame and landing gear and busted prop. The Averso rotor had something to do with it I am sure. At what point its the pilot's responsibility?

No one is 100% US made if they use Rotax engine and analog gauges and pre-rotator components coming from elsewhere. RFD had components like engine, and components from New Zealand in it.
We have to serve our customers with the best flying machine we can do within a competitive price point. I think we must be doing something right to get 22 orders of tandem gyroplane like AR-1 in last 12 months of time in the US market. There is a package of technical support, parts and machine that goes into a purchase decision.
 
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