Military helicopter pilot pursuing civilian CFI

[JacobS96]

I apologize for the long-winded post. I'm looking for some input from the helicopter instructors out there.

I'm an Army National Guard CH-47F pilot looking to become a helicopter CFI on the civilian side. I graduated from Army flight school earlier this year, and at the time of this writing, I have 180 total flight hours between the UH-72 (the aircraft I first trained on) and CH-47F, and I have a commercial certificate with an instrument rating that I received upon graduating from flight school. For the next few months, I'll be deployed for the next few months, but afterward, I'd like to start a civilian helicopter career. For what it's worth, after this full-time stint, I anticipate having approximately 230-250 total helicopter hours.

I think going through the CFI course and instructing would be a good place to start a commercial rotary-wing career; it seems like that's generally the path most people go down to build flight time and experience. I've done some research on the CFI course, and it seems like the standard is 25 flight hours + ground/academic instruction. What I'd like input on is how my military experience (and lack of civilian aviation experience) will affect this process. I'll elaborate. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pilots who go through the CFI course will train on the aircraft they've been flying from the start of their progression—for example, the R22 and R44. But regardless of the aircraft I fly during the CFI course, it will be my first time flying said aircraft (except for a discovery flight I did in the R22 years ago).

After learning to fly a very large, advanced aircraft in the military, I'm confident that I won't have much difficulty learning whatever aircraft I fly in the CFI course (which would likely be a Robinson). But with the course only consisting of 25 flight hours, I'm just not sure what to expect in terms of having to a) learn to fly an entirely new aircraft and then b) learn to instruct on said aircraft. In other words, most of my peers would have at least 150 hours of experience in the same aircraft, and I would be starting out with essentially none. At the end of the day, I realize that a helicopter is a helicopter, but I'm just trying to set my expectations and be as prepared as I can be.

I greatly appreciate any advice.

 

[Smack]

Welcome Jacob.
You are stationed at Ft Hood perhaps? That's about 20 or so miles north of me and I enjoy watching the CH-47's and UH-64's fly over the ranch.
No advice on the helicopter CFI question, but support having more CFI's, so I'm encouraging you to go for it.

 

[Aerofoam]

I am in the UAV world, but the military helicopter pilots I have known are generally coming into the civilian market with ridiculous amounts of
of hours and they get the best jobs in the market.
I think your low hours puts you into the general newcomer category, so your proposed direction is probably the only somewhat affordable approach.
I know a Tucson CFI who trains in an R-44 and his base rate is $650/hr. So it's not for the faint of pocketbook......
It's a tough market to carve out an income from, but it is possible.
I know a retired guy in Wa. who buys used R-44s, basically details them and re-sells them. He generally makes about $10k to $40k
on each one and then uses the delivery as an excuse to go on a cross country trip. He flies it while in possession and this feeds his habit while actually making some money.

 

[okikuma]

Welcome to the forum Jacob.

Since you're a recent Army Aviator Graduate and a recent CH-47 type graduate, you are obviously at the beginning of a nice long ARNG aviation career. Congratulations!

First, have you looked over Army Regulation 95-1? There are some answers to your questions in that publication. Next, by previous statements, I think you're still on Active Duty for continued aviation training. If so, my suggestion is to see if you can secure a training slot to become an Aviation Standardization Instructor before you are released to return to your unit. It can be in any U.S. Army Airframe, not necessarily the CH-47. If you manage to get it in the CH-47, great. That will make you even more valuable to your ARNG unit and will help you in both your future Civilian and Army Aviation career.

In the mean time, before you can secure an Aviation Standardization Instructor training slot, I suggest you start off now by studying for and take the following FAA exams: FOI (Fundamentals of Instruction) Exam, the Instrument Ground Instructor Exam, and the Advanced Ground Instructor Exam. Studying for and passing those exams will help you understand in detail the General Aviation way of flight operations and instructing. In so many positive ways, having in your possession the IGI and AGI certificates is a great benefit for a new up and becoming CFI and instructor career. The IGI and AGI are for a lifetime. No expiration. Knowledge gained is never a detriment. After you have received your Aviation Standardization Instructor ticket, I then suggest you go ahead and take the FAA Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam. During that exam will find that "you've been there before" because many of the questions are also in the IGI and AGI exams.

With that Aviation Standardization Instructor "ticket," you then can complete the Integrated Airman Certification and Rating Application (IACRA) and with a copy of your ARMY Form DA-759, Individual Flight Record and Flight Certificate Army, the IGI, AGI certificates, and Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam completion certificate, make an appointment and visit your local FAA FSDO and apply for a Rotorcraft, Helicopter, Certified Flight Instructor rating. You then will walk out as a Rotorcraft Helicopter CFI.

There will be those who will argue that one does not need to take the FOI, IGI, AGI and Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam if one is an Aviation Standardization Instructor and go through the process with the FSDO. They are absolutely correct. Again I stress. Knowledge gain is never a detriment. When the FSDO representative sees you took the extra effort and took those exams, you are showing how serious you are in obtaining the Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor by way of endorsement. If for some reason you cannot secure an Aviation Standardization Instructor training slot, and are released back to your unit. You've already completed the FOI, IGI, AGI and the Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam. Again, knowledge gained is never a detriment.

Many ARNG Aviators around the country are CFIs and DPEs. I'm sure that some of the Aviators within your unit can help you achieve your goal too. Ask around.

IACRA - Federal Aviation Administration

I hope this helps

Wayne

 

[WaspAir]

Be aware that there are special requirements under SFAR 73 for the Robinsons.

While I don't doubt your competence, the Robbie (22 especially) is a squirrelly little demon compared to the big iron you've been flying, and it's wise to remember that the step down is as big as the step up. Piston engines (and only one them) require a different mindset as well.

 

[Brent Smith]

What e

Welcome to the forum Jacob.

Since you're a recent Army Aviator Graduate and a recent CH-47 type graduate, you are obviously at the beginning of a nice long ARNG aviation career. Congratulations!

First, have you looked over Army Regulation 95-1? There are some answers to your questions in that publication. Next, by previous statements, I think you're still on Active Duty for continued aviation training. If so, my suggestion is to see if you can secure a training slot to become an Aviation Standardization Instructor before you are released to return to your unit. It can be in any U.S. Army Airframe, not necessarily the CH-47. If you manage to get it in the CH-47, great. That will make you even more valuable to your ARNG unit and will help you in both your future Civilian and Army Aviation career.

In the mean time, before you can secure an Aviation Standardization Instructor training slot, I suggest you start off now by studying for and take the following FAA exams: FOI (Fundamentals of Instruction) Exam, the Instrument Ground Instructor Exam, and the Advanced Ground Instructor Exam. Studying for and passing those exams will help you understand in detail the General Aviation way of flight operations and instructing. In so many positive ways, having in your possession the IGI and AGI certificates is a great benefit for a new up and becoming CFI and instructor career. The IGI and AGI are for a lifetime. No expiration. Knowledge gained is never a detriment. After you have received your Aviation Standardization Instructor ticket, I then suggest you go ahead and take the FAA Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam. During that exam will find that "you've been there before" because many of the questions are also in the IGI and AGI exams.

With that Aviation Standardization Instructor "ticket," you then can complete the Integrated Airman Certification and Rating Application (IACRA) and with a copy of your ARMY Form DA-759, Individual Flight Record and Flight Certificate Army, the IGI, AGI certificates, and Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam completion certificate, make an appointment and visit your local FAA FSDO and apply for a Rotorcraft, Helicopter, Certified Flight Instructor rating. You then will walk out as a Rotorcraft Helicopter CFI.

There will be those who will argue that one does not need to take the FOI, IGI, AGI and Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam if one is an Aviation Standardization Instructor and go through the process with the FSDO. They are absolutely correct. Again I stress. Knowledge gain is never a detriment. When the FSDO representative sees you took the extra effort and took those exams, you are showing how serious you are in obtaining the Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor by way of endorsement. If for some reason you cannot secure an Aviation Standardization Instructor training slot, and are released back to your unit. You've already completed the FOI, IGI, AGI and the Rotorcraft Helicopter Certified Flight Instructor Knowledge Exam. Again, knowledge gained is never a detriment.

Many ARNG Aviators around the country are CFIs and DPEs. I'm sure that some of the Aviators within your unit can help you achieve your goal too. Ask around.

IACRA - Federal Aviation Administration

I hope this helps

Wayne

Excellent and detailed advice, Okikuma. Sounds like you've been there, done that. True? (retired Army myself but ground pounder, not aviator)

 

[querist]

I apologize for the long-winded post. I'm looking for some input from the helicopter instructors out there.

I'm an Army National Guard CH-47F pilot looking to become a helicopter CFI on the civilian side. I graduated from Army flight school earlier this year, and at the time of this writing, I have 180 total flight hours between the UH-72 (the aircraft I first trained on) and CH-47F, and I have a commercial certificate with an instrument rating that I received upon graduating from flight school. For the next few months, I'll be deployed for the next few months, but afterward, I'd like to start a civilian helicopter career. For what it's worth, after this full-time stint, I anticipate having approximately 230-250 total helicopter hours.

I think going through the CFI course and instructing would be a good place to start a commercial rotary-wing career; it seems like that's generally the path most people go down to build flight time and experience. I've done some research on the CFI course, and it seems like the standard is 25 flight hours + ground/academic instruction. What I'd like input on is how my military experience (and lack of civilian aviation experience) will affect this process. I'll elaborate. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pilots who go through the CFI course will train on the aircraft they've been flying from the start of their progression—for example, the R22 and R44. But regardless of the aircraft I fly during the CFI course, it will be my first time flying said aircraft (except for a discovery flight I did in the R22 years ago).

After learning to fly a very large, advanced aircraft in the military, I'm confident that I won't have much difficulty learning whatever aircraft I fly in the CFI course (which would likely be a Robinson). But with the course only consisting of 25 flight hours, I'm just not sure what to expect in terms of having to a) learn to fly an entirely new aircraft and then b) learn to instruct on said aircraft. In other words, most of my peers would have at least 150 hours of experience in the same aircraft, and I would be starting out with essentially none. At the end of the day, I realize that a helicopter is a helicopter, but I'm just trying to set my expectations and be as prepared as I can be.

I greatly appreciate any advice.

As I'm sure you know, the smaller Robinsons (R-22 and R-44) have SFAR-73 restrictions on acting as a PIC and instructor. I think you'll have enough total hours to bypass some of the requirements, but there is still some special training needed for those two models due to some strangeness with their rotors.

Thank you for your service, and I wish you well. I see you're in Texas. If you're in East Texas, please contact me. My initial desire was to fly helicopters, but no-one near me offers training. I know a flight school that wants to expand into helicopters and is having a Hiller 12C brought up to flightworthyness (is that a real word?).

 

[bryancobb]

I apologize for the long-winded post. I'm looking for some input from the helicopter instructors out there.

I'm an Army National Guard CH-47F pilot looking to become a helicopter CFI on the civilian side. I graduated from Army flight school earlier this year, and at the time of this writing, I have 180 total flight hours between the UH-72 (the aircraft I first trained on) and CH-47F, and I have a commercial certificate with an instrument rating that I received upon graduating from flight school. For the next few months, I'll be deployed for the next few months, but afterward, I'd like to start a civilian helicopter career. For what it's worth, after this full-time stint, I anticipate having approximately 230-250 total helicopter hours.

I think going through the CFI course and instructing would be a good place to start a commercial rotary-wing career; it seems like that's generally the path most people go down to build flight time and experience. I've done some research on the CFI course, and it seems like the standard is 25 flight hours + ground/academic instruction. What I'd like input on is how my military experience (and lack of civilian aviation experience) will affect this process. I'll elaborate. I'm sure the overwhelming majority of pilots who go through the CFI course will train on the aircraft they've been flying from the start of their progression—for example, the R22 and R44. But regardless of the aircraft I fly during the CFI course, it will be my first time flying said aircraft (except for a discovery flight I did in the R22 years ago).

After learning to fly a very large, advanced aircraft in the military, I'm confident that I won't have much difficulty learning whatever aircraft I fly in the CFI course (which would likely be a Robinson). But with the course only consisting of 25 flight hours, I'm just not sure what to expect in terms of having to a) learn to fly an entirely new aircraft and then b) learn to instruct on said aircraft. In other words, most of my peers would have at least 150 hours of experience in the same aircraft, and I would be starting out with essentially none. At the end of the day, I realize that a helicopter is a helicopter, but I'm just trying to set my expectations and be as prepared as I can be.

I greatly appreciate any advice.

Jacob,
First, congratulations on your success so-far. Okikuma has given you great advice. As he said, getting the three FAA writtens he mentions behind you is a good idea but is not required. After becoming and Army SIP (free), the path to civilian CFI is easy at the FSDO, especially since helicopter CFI's are in such short supply. Paying out-of-pocket for R-22/44 time is unnecessary for an Army aviator with your civilian Comm/Inst/Heli license already in your wallet.

Does your "normal" 8 to 5 job support the expense of civilian helicopter training? Good luck.

 

[JacobS96]

I appreciate the advice. I'll address some of the points mentioned:

- As an Army aviator, I'm familiar with AR 95-1. However, I'm not sure what exactly is being referenced within AR 95-1 that pertains to my situation. Can you clarify?

- In regard to becoming an SP, are you referring to becoming an Army SP? If so, that's not remotely feasible for me. In order to be an SP in the Army, one must first make PIC, become an IP, and then become an SP. Unit SPs generally have a ton of flight hours and are well into their Army aviation career. Additionally, units generally only have one SP that is a warrant officer. As a commissioned officer, becoming an Army SP simply isn't in my future. Perhaps you're talking about becoming an FAA SP? If so, I'm not aware of how that works at all.

- For some additional context on my situation—I'm currently deployed (that's what I meant when I said I'd be doing Army stuff full time for the next few months). So, after this deployment, I plan on using the GI Bill for the CFI course. I'll have quite a bit of leave built up to use after the deployment, so if all goes as planned, I'll be able to continue making active duty income while using the GI Bill to go through the course. I also plan on taking the CFI course with a flight school that is likely to have a job opening upon course completion.

 

[Mayfield]

I also plan on taking the CFI course with a flight school that is likely to have a job opening upon course completion.

Quantum Helicopters in Chandler, AZ is veteran friendly and may have the program you're looking for.

www.quantumhelicopters.com

Jim

 

[bryancobb]

OK...Let's try this. Are you familiar with RTAG? Lots of options here. https://www.rtag.org/about

You use the term "terminal leave." Are you totally leaving the military/guard?

My understanding is that most aviators incur a "commitment" of several years just for the privilege of
going through flight school. Typically, by the time your commitment is met, you are a CW-2 with almost 1000
hours and PIC status. These days, many passenger carrying airlines are like a school of sharks in a feeding frenzy
to get Warrants that are leaving the service and they offer you a job and $25,000 in free flight training to get you
ready for first officer jobs.

 

[Tyger]

Hey, are you the "Helicopter Lessons in Ten Minutes or Less" guy? Those videos are OUTstanding!!

PS rereading your CV, I guess you are not him... same first name, though!

 

[Aaron R]

I think going through the CFI course and instructing would be a good place to start a commercial rotary-wing career; it seems like that's generally the path most people go down to build flight time and experience.

I think you're right, this is what most people do. But it doesn't make it a good thing. In my opinion it is a big weakness in the civilian pilot training system, at least in the US. The same problem exists in the fixed-wing world. The least experienced pilots do the instructing.

When I converted from fixed-wing pilot to helicopter, I learned from some extremely experienced instructors. Guys who started in the Army, did several civilian jobs, and had accumulated 10,000-20,000+ hours over the years. It was so valuable. The thought of trusting a relatively new pilot to teach me slope landing technique and intervene if needed to prevent dynamic rollover is appalling. As a customer, I would not pay good money and assume the risk of learning from a low-hours instructor if there is any other choice. A few dollars more can buy better and safer instruction.

If I were you, Jacob, I would do as much flying in the ANG as possible. Take every opportunity to fly more, in different missions, locations, and environments. Jump at any opportunity to fly in other types of helicopters, or to instruct. I realize a commissioned officer does not have the same opportunity as a warrant. But don't you think you can get at least 500-1,000 hours in the ANG, and all on the gov't dime, before going into civilian instruction?

That would get you through the through the period of your career in which you are statistically at greatest risk of causing an accident. And you could get this experience in high performance military machines, surrounded by a cadre of good pilots and mentors, instead of sucking up the less desirable helicopter jobs like blowing cherries or grapes at 3 A.M. in a robbie, or letting students try to kill you before your are wise enough and skilled enough to prevent it. No disrespect to those who have done these jobs. It's just a hard life, and the military offers a great alternative on the road to becoming an experienced pilot. The robinsons, and the flight schools, and the students will all still be around, ready and waiting for you when you are done with your military flying.

Congrats on earning your wings!

 

[okikuma]

I appreciate the advice. I'll address some of the points mentioned:

- As an Army aviator, I'm familiar with AR 95-1. However, I'm not sure what exactly is being referenced within AR 95-1 that pertains to my situation. Can you clarify?

- In regard to becoming an SP, are you referring to becoming an Army SP? If so, that's not remotely feasible for me. In order to be an SP in the Army, one must first make PIC, become an IP, and then become an SP. Unit SPs generally have a ton of flight hours and are well into their Army aviation career. Additionally, units generally only have one SP that is a warrant officer. As a commissioned officer, becoming an Army SP simply isn't in my future. Perhaps you're talking about becoming an FAA SP? If so, I'm not aware of how that works at all.

- For some additional context on my situation—I'm currently deployed (that's what I meant when I said I'd be doing Army stuff full time for the next few months). So, after this deployment, I plan on using the GI Bill for the CFI course. I'll have quite a bit of terminal leave built up to use after the deployment, so if all goes as planned, I'll be able to continue making active duty income while using the GI Bill to go through the course. I also plan on taking the CFI course with a flight school that is likely to have a job opening upon course completion.

Hello Jacob,

Yes, I was referring to Army SP. You're absolutely correct about the PIC, IP, and SP path and the normal length of time and hours needed to achieve each level is a fair amount of time. Over the years I've come across a number of aviators (CW2s) that achieved the SP rating very quickly, as within two years or less after earning their wings, so it is not uncommon. As I reflect back, most of the Commissioned Officers I ever met or knew that had SP ratings received it when they were Chief Warrants (before being Direct Commissioned). When I was writing my reply, even though you mentioned it didn't set into my brain that you are looking to become a Rotorcraft CFI in a much sooner length of time.

if you are able to during your deployment, take the FAA FOI, IGI, AGI and Helo CFI written exams (https://faa.psiexams.com/FAA/login), and have those in hand when you are back home and able to find a Fight School to start your practical training.

Wayne

 

[JacobS96]

OK...Let's try this. Are you familiar with RTAG? Lots of options here. https://www.rtag.org/about

You use the term "terminal leave." Are you totally leaving the military/guard?

My understanding is that most aviators incur a "commitment" of several years just for the privilege of
going through flight school. Typically, by the time your commitment is met, you are a CW-2 with almost 1000
hours and PIC status. These days, many passenger carrying airlines are like a school of sharks in a feeding frenzy
to get Warrants that are leaving the service and they offer you a job and $25,000 in free flight training to get you
ready for first officer jobs.

I am familiar with RTAG. I actually had my wife go to a recent RTAG event on my behalf since I'm not in the states.

Terminal leave was the wrong term to use. I will have leave accrued from my time on active duty that I can take when I get back home following this deployment. So, the deployment is ~9 months, but I'll have ~2 months of leave accrued that I'll be able to take when I return. I'll continue getting active duty pay during this time as I transition back to my Guard/civilian life. After this deployment, I'll still have a commitment of ~5 years for the Guard.

 

[JacobS96]

I think you're right, this is what most people do. But it doesn't make it a good thing. In my opinion it is a big weakness in the civilian pilot training system, at least in the US. The same problem exists in the fixed-wing world. The least experienced pilots do the instructing.

When I converted from fixed-wing pilot to helicopter, I learned from some extremely experienced instructors. Guys who started in the Army, did several civilian jobs, and had accumulated 10,000-20,000+ hours over the years. It was so valuable. The thought of trusting a relatively new pilot to teach me slope landing technique and intervene if needed to prevent dynamic rollover is appalling. As a customer, I would not pay good money and assume the risk of learning from a low-hours instructor if there is any other choice. A few dollars more can buy better and safer instruction.

If I were you, Jacob, I would do as much flying in the ANG as possible. Take every opportunity to fly more, in different missions, locations, and environments. Jump at any opportunity to fly in other types of helicopters, or to instruct. I realize a commissioned officer does not have the same opportunity as a warrant. But don't you think you can get at least 500-1,000 hours in the ANG, and all on the gov't dime, before going into civilian instruction?

That would get you through the through the period of your career in which you are statistically at greatest risk of causing an accident. And you could get this experience in high performance military machines, surrounded by a cadre of good pilots and mentors, instead of sucking up the less desirable helicopter jobs like blowing cherries or grapes at 3 A.M. in a robbie, or letting students try to kill you before your are wise enough and skilled enough to prevent it. No disrespect to those who have done these jobs. It's just a hard life, and the military offers a great alternative on the road to becoming an experienced pilot. The robinsons, and the flight schools, and the students will all still be around, ready and waiting for you when you are done with your military flying.

Congrats on earning your wings!

I appreciate your input. And generally speaking, I do agree that it's somewhat perplexing to have relatively new pilots become instructors. However, I do think military aviation experience is more valuable hour for hour when you compare it to civilian aviation. As a military cargo helicopter pilot, I have experience with NVGs, external loads, slope landings, dust landings, low-level tactical flight, multi-ship flight, maintenance test flights, etc. Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that I'm still a low-hour pilot, but I think the flight experience I do have is more valuable than that of a pilot with comparable flight time who has almost exclusively flown in a traffic pattern or cruised around on leisurely cross-country flights.

I have no doubt that I can get to 500-1,000 hours during my time in the military, but as a Guard guy, I also have to have a civilian career. And I'd like to get started with a civilian aviation career as soon as I possibly can in whatever capacity I can.

 

[JacobS96]

Hey, are you the "Helicopter Lessons in Ten Minutes or Less" guy? Those videos are OUTstanding!!

PS rereading your CV, I guess you are not him... same first name, though!

Nope, not me. But yeah, those videos are great! Definitely referenced them while I was going through Army flight school.

 

[Tyger]

I will have leave accrued from my time on active duty that I can take when I get back home following this deployment. So, the deployment is ~9 months, but I'll have ~2 months of leave accrued that I'll be able to take when I return. I'll continue getting active duty pay during this time as I transition back to my Guard/civilian life. After this deployment, I'll still have a commitment of ~5 years for the Guard.

Interesting, when I was in we got 2.5 days ordinary leave per month, which would only amount to 25 days for a ten-month deployment.
Are they giving you guys some sort of special leave?

 

[JacobS96]

Interesting, when I was in we got 2.5 days ordinary leave per month, which would only amount to 25 days for a ten-month deployment.
Are they giving you guys some sort of special leave?

No, it’s still the same amount. The other leave I accrued while I was in flight school.