Midair applicable to gyroplanes.

MikeBoyette

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My preference is the same Vance. But let me assure you, there are a whole plethora of GA pilots who think coming straight in and saving 4 minutes is their birth right even if there are multiple planes in the pattern. They believe they are God's gift to aviation and these are the ones who will do straight in "every single time" like joining midfield at 45 is the exception, not the standard procedure.
Yes especially those with lots of money flying expensive aircraft. They think their time is worth more than anyone else’s. Jackass’s in twins usually fit this bill or anything running on JP4.
 

Vance

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Yes especially those with lots of money flying expensive aircraft. They think their time is worth more than anyone else’s. Jackass’s in twins usually fit this bill or anything running on JP4.
I have not seen a direct correlation between how much money people have and poor aviation decision making Mike.

When I read accident reports it appears to me people of all economic levels are involved.

I have had people in all types of aircraft and economic status make ten mile straight in approaches to runway two six at Santa Ynez even though the weather AWOS says; “straight approaches to runway two six are not recommended due to disruptions to aircraft in the pattern.”
 
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MikeBoyette

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I have not seen a direct correlation between how much money people have and poor aviation decision making Mike.

When I read accident reports it appears to me people of all economic levels are involved.

I have had people in all types of aircraft and economic status make ten mile straight in approaches to runway two six at Santa Ynez even though the weather AWOS says; “straight approaches to runway two six are not recommended due to disruptions to aircraft in the pattern.”
We differ in our experiences. At Wauchula it seems to be that self important rich guy with the 210 or twin that thinks his time is more important than anyone else’s. He will do a straight in approach and if your lucky he will call it in. We had a guy like that do the very thing with a small jet and almost hit a gyro and demanded gyros get run off from the airport. He succeed for a few years. That is until Chief Beaty had the balls to stand up to him and his family.
 

Loren Jones

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Who had the right of way does not matter to the dead.

This is true. That is a point that will be argued by the families' lawyers in court, but it means nothing to the victims themselves. There was shared culpability on both parties. I wouldn't have come barreling straight in fast with traffic in the pattern, nor would I have turned in front of a faster aircraft on a long final.
 

Resasi

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You sound like a professional pilot LD.

The arrogant and ignorant unfortunately come in all strata's of society.
 

Abid

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I read a report on statistics per unit hour activity in 2016 I think.
The most fatal accidents per unit hour of activity are surprisingly in boating, followed by ATV and motorsports etc,, followed by motorcycle riding and then 4th or fifth was GA flying. I was kind of shocked to learn the order. It was not expected, Driving cars on the road is however safer than GA for fatal per unit hour of activity
 

Loren Jones

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You may have heard a gruff reply only once, you were probably being cursed by many pilots 50 times. They just did not say it on the radio. Trust me. When there are more than 2 planes in the pattern and you are VFR, the courteous thing is to enter midfield downwind in the US like recommended. Everything else is just self fulfilling justification.
Are you distinguishing between the Bonanza driver vs. the CRJ200? I'd agree that the Bo should maneuver to join the pattern if it's busy. But low level maneuvering around a traffic pattern is actually an increased risk for the CRJ. Keep in mind that they would also be flying a much wider pattern than the GA traffic, typically with a five mile final if they did join the pattern.

Also, that lowly CRJ200 might represent 53 users of that airport. Personally, when I hear a larger, faster aircraft on a long final, I just adjust my pattern accordingly or exit the pattern and rejoin to make things work. We can make it work for all of us.
 
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Aerofoam

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I read a report on statistics per unit hour activity in 2016 I think.
The most fatal accidents per unit hour of activity are surprisingly in boating, followed by ATV and motorsports etc,, followed by motorcycle riding and then 4th or fifth was GA flying. I was kind of shocked to learn the order. It was not expected, Driving cars on the road is however safer than GA for fatal per unit hour of activity

More than likely, there are many more incidents in cars, but they are non fatal. If you hit something at 40mph. in a car with airbags and
seat belts and metal framework surrounding you, you will most likely only get beat up.
The same impact in a light weight airplane could find you integrated with some of the scrap being disposed of....
This is along the lines of the fixed wing/rotary wing statistics that show fewer incidents with rotary wings, but significantly higher fatality rate per incident....
 

GyrOZprey

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The JOY of the versatility of gyro flight profile!

This Saturday my local EAA chapter88 ...had our annual fly-in!

I was approaching from the N to join the downwind for 36 and heard & saw 2 faster aircraft joining the pattern crossing midfield!

I let both know I was going into slow flight mode in a close downwind to allow them to get to FW downwind position & I would be #3 to land!

The pilot of the second FW came over & thanked me later for good airmanship & communication to allow him a smooth arrival! (not having to extend in complex airspace to the S)
 

Andino

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Personally, when I hear a larger, faster aircraft on a long final, I just adjust my pattern accordingly or exit the pattern and rejoin to make things work. We can make it work for all of us.
I've been trying to make precisely that point. Maybe you'll have better luck than I.
 

jeffh

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I've been trying to make precisely that point. Maybe you'll have better luck than I.
I don't think anyone is arguing your point that it was a bad decision for the slower aircraft to turn final in the face of a faster aircraft on a straight in final.
But it's also appropriate to acknowledge that most accidents are a result of a chain of events, and the chain was set in motion by the pilot who announced a straight in while other aircraft were already in the pattern, whether or not it makes any difference to the now dead pilots. The chain was not set in motion by the slower pilot, rather he inadvertently became part of the chain, and decided poorly, thus perpetuating the chain to it's final result.
The faster pilot forced the slower pilot to make a decision to divert or not from his initial plan, tragically the slower pilot either through inexperience and/or poor judgement, miscalculated and made the wrong decision. Tying into the other thread on maintaining distance from airports and communicating while flying cross-country, I am a strong believer in having ADS-B in installed in aircraft as an additional tool to help avert tragedies like this one.
 

Abid

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Are you distinguishing between the Bonanza driver vs. the CRJ200? I'd agree that the Bo should maneuver to join the pattern if it's busy. But low level maneuvering around a traffic pattern is actually an increased risk for the CRJ. Keep in mind that they would also be flying a much wider pattern than the GA traffic, typically with a five mile final if they did join the pattern.

Also, that lowly CRJ200 might represent 53 users of that airport. Personally, when I hear a larger, faster aircraft on a long final, I just adjust my pattern accordingly or exit the pattern and rejoin to make things work. We can make it work for all of us.

CRJ is a transport aircraft. Those do not usually end up on any municipal uncontrolled airport runways. That is an extremely rare occasion. In such thing were to happen what I have seen is clear communication by the jet pilot requesting to take precedence over other GA airplanes clearly and usually people would oblige happily but the intentions have to be made clear. I have never seen a 50 seater land at Municipal uncontrolled runways but it may happen.
 

WaspAir

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It can't be common in the post 9-11, TSA era, but I used to see it long ago.
 

Loren Jones

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CRJ is a transport aircraft. Those do not usually end up on any municipal uncontrolled airport runways. That is an extremely rare occasion. In such thing were to happen what I have seen is clear communication by the jet pilot requesting to take precedence over other GA airplanes clearly and usually people would oblige happily but the intentions have to be made clear. I have never seen a 50 seater land at Municipal uncontrolled runways but it may happen.

I actually flew a CRJ200 into multiple uncontrolled small airports, often times multiple times a day. KINL, KHIB, KBRD, KABR, KRHI and KIMT come to mind as ones I was in an out of countless times from our hub in KMSP. We regularly mixed it up with GA aircraft at all these fields and all worked together to safely accomplish everyone's flights. This is me on a very brisk evening at KINL with a 200.

IMG_6058.jpeg
 

Abid

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I actually flew a CRJ200 into multiple uncontrolled small airports, often times multiple times a day. KINL, KHIB, KBRD, KABR, KRHI and KIMT come to mind as ones I was in an out of countless times from our hub in KMSP. We regularly mixed it up with GA aircraft at all these fields and all worked together to safely accomplish everyone's flights. This is me on a very brisk evening at KINL with a 200.

View attachment 1155849

I have never seen that or even heard that in Florida and I have been flying since 2002. Can’t say it doesn’t happen but it’s certainly that rare.
 

Loren Jones

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I have never seen that or even heard that in Florida and I have been flying since 2002. Can’t say it doesn’t happen but it’s certainly that rare.
Florida is fortunate to have multiple major airports spread throughout the state, unlike places like Minnesota. Hence they don't have any Essential Air Service cities like many more rural states with fewer major metros. You can find the list of EAS cities below....most are small, non-towered airports.


Hearing commuter jets on CTAF is not uncommon in much of the country.
 

Andino

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LD, I believe you, but even though you've flown CRJ200s into untowered airports post-9/11, others more senior to you here were sceptical, and that is what matters on the RWF. I've learned that in my short time here already. Nobody is likely to reply to you with "I didn't realize that" or "I learned something new, thank you" or "I guess I was wrong about that, sorry!" The best you'll ever get is a Cricket Concerto such as over the past 13 days.
 

Loren Jones

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It can't be common in the post 9-11, TSA era, but I used to see it long ago.

It's actually thousands of times a day across the country. Look at the list of EAS airports I linked to above, then check Flightaware for commercial flights in and out of them. Most have at least two flights a day, some many more. All jet traffic. Attached is a graphic of all the cities currently served by my former employer. There are a bunch of non-towered fields included. Every regional airline has something similar. So it's definitely a common occurrence in many parts of the U.S.Image 9-27-22 at 10.15 PM.jpeg
 

okikuma

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Forty-some years ago I witnessed a midair collision between a C-150 and Cherokee 180. At that time, two uncontrolled airports were adjacent to each other. San Fernando Airport Rwy 01/19, and Whiteman Airport Rwy 12/30. The two patterns were separated by a very visible landmark, the 118 Fwy. For many years, there was never a conflict between the two patterns. Pilots from both airports were very disciplined in flying the correct patterns.

A very fine young man was flying his first solo at San Fernando Airport in a C-150..His CFI was a friend of mine and I hung around to witness the first solo and "baptize" him with a bucket of cold water after cutting off his feathers (shirt tail). On his third circuit, a Piper Cherokee 180 cut across the pattern at San Fernando while flying a very long straight in approach to Whiteman Airport Rwy 12. The Cherokee collided broadside with the C-150 and both aircraft went down.

A very sad day to witness the young man suffer the ultimate consequence of another person's selfishness and stupidity.

Wayne
 

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