Mentone 2015

Dean_Dolph

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Zilch!
More AC types...I've tried on other forums (it's sort of now). Joint fly-in...FW, PPG, PPC, HG, Balloon, Hover, especially Trikes...way too few fly-ins for them. Every little bit helps.

Before Oshkosh…less burn out...no gap...the gap is a problem. I passed it up twice due the the schedule gap.
Sounds like you need help getting your priorities in order!

I pitch it on several other forums every year. Needs more.

Celeb...comedian, band, athlete, reporter...

Air show pro(s)

Sky Diving schedule window

AeroTow hang gliding window

Balloon launch window

Bicycle ralley

Motorcycle ralley

Running ralley:
http://www.runnersworld.com/race-finder

Chili cook-off

Corn roast

Get the word out to the above segments...
Okay, Chuck, you could bring some glory to PRA Chapter 62 if you took on the task of following through with your ideas and make it happen for Mentone!
 

Dean_Dolph

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….. I know nothing about putting up an event but it is my understanding that having the convention in IN year after year alienates the chapters that are not in reasonable driving distance away. Not everyone has an extra week of vacation and that sure puts limitation of attendance…...
Gabor, I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again, Oshkosh has been an experimental builders destination forever without people complaining about distance. If it is important to a person then distance isn’t going to matter. When Kathy Fields was editor of the PRA mag, she did a demographics study on where PRA members lived and believe it or not Mentone was almost perfectly in the center of the PRA membership. The center may have shifted since then but…….
I know for a fact that Texas/Utah/California/Georgia/Carolinas/Florida are just a few chapters that are capable and willing to put up the convention. They have been doing it and believe it or not but even on a larger scale than apparently Mentone is becoming lately.
Nah, Mentone is still the largest event despite what other gatherings publicize; even this year. And I doubt you would ever get Texas PRA Chapter 62 BOD to agree to host the PRA convention again.
….Give them a chance and let them prove themselves. What does the PRA have to lose?
What does the PRA have to lose? How ‘bout money! The convention was held at Waxahachie Texas in May of 2002 and lost money which is the only time that has happened. The convention was moved around a lot until 1996 when the Mentone airport was acquired and I can tell you the memories of the 1990 convention in Hearne TX. are still strong enough in Chapter 62 to not want to do that again! The summers in this area can be brutal. We moved our annual fly in back a couple of months to the third week in October because of that.
When I am consulting with other chapter presidents I always see the same people putting in the work. Once they burn out there won't be any event going on. Leaders need to be able to recruit volunteers if this sport is going to survive, and we need to reward those volunteers if this sport is to thrive. It's just my $ 0.02
I see all the leaders constantly trying to recruit volunteers and the only result I see is people complaining about the events without any showing any indication that they will volunteer to help out and make them better for everyone. Shoot, it has been my experience that it is almost impossible to find anyone willing to become a chapter officer.
 

SWaRC

PRA Chapter 26
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Gabor, I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again, Oshkosh has been an experimental builders destination forever without people complaining about distance. If it is important to a person then distance isn’t going to matter. When Kathy Fields was editor of the PRA mag, she did a demographics study on where PRA members lived and believe it or not Mentone was almost perfectly in the center of the PRA membership. The center may have shifted since then but…….

If that's the case I must be the only one working guy out there who is not able to take off from work and travel 2 days unless of course if I flew.
Sorry but not everyone is retired in this sport. I work almost 7 days every week and don't have the time to do the trip.
I would if it were in Ga or the Carolinas that would be a reasonable distance. So comparing it to Osh is not valid.
Oshkosh offers a million things for everyone attending and it is being run like a business.....because it is!!! And a good business at that.

Nah, Mentone is still the largest event despite what other gatherings publicize; even this year. And I doubt you would ever get Texas PRA Chapter 62 BOD to agree to host the PRA convention again.
What does the PRA have to lose? How ‘bout money! The convention was held at Waxahachie Texas in May of 2002 and lost money which is the only time that has happened. The convention was moved around a lot until 1996 when the Mentone airport was acquired and I can tell you the memories of the 1990 convention in Hearne TX. are still strong enough in Chapter 62 to not want to do that again! The summers in this area can be brutal. We moved our annual fly in back a couple of months to the third week in October because of that.

OK so losing money by having the convention a payed event somewhere else is the reason why Mentone became the spot for it?
If your attendance is gradually disappearing than your expenses for Mentone becomes a loss!
Sooooooo I am not seeing the solution being pumping money into it by gracious donors to be the solution nor being the proper medicine for the ailing organization.
There is a stigma attached to the PRA that is pretty negative as we have watched the public display of power struggle and public display of inability for the BODs to agree on even simple things.
This forum has NOT helped the image of the PRA. I for one would NOT like anyone question a decision I make for Sunstate on a public forum where you don't have to look into my eyes and ask that question.
People tend to be a little looser in their phraseology behind their keyboards than face to face. That's what meetings are for!

I see all the leaders constantly trying to recruit volunteers and the only result I see is people complaining about the events without any showing any indication that they will volunteer to help out and make them better for everyone. Shoot, it has been my experience that it is almost impossible to find anyone willing to become a chapter officer.

Then they failed as leaders Dean! I don't know what else to say. Failing leadership might be the real reason for the demise of the PRA.
From your own experience dealing with me you know how much I do for the sport in the background for several sister chapters.
I do lead by example! I also expect our members to contribute because that's the only way the we are to grow. Note I didn't say survive!!!!!!
Think about how Doug Barker was elected! Doug bless your heart for taking on this task. You are a gracious person for accepting the nomination.
But the truth be told nobody wanted it and they couldn't leave the room fast enough when the couple of board members resigned! And that's the truth.
We need to start speaking the truth and face the reality and admit where we hurt in order for the doctor to figure out what the illness is........
 

GyroRon

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Ok, so the pra does own it as PRA Mentone Inc. Tax value at 676,900.00. So from a business perspective it should bring in at least 6700.00 per month on its own. Do other aircraft associations own the airports where they have flyins? If so what do they do with it to bring in income?

There is no way I could see that airport ever selling for near 700 grand.

And there is no way as a airport I could ever see that place bringing in 6-7 grand a month in income.

As a campground, with a runway, its possible the PRA could make some income but not 6-7 grand a month.

Again, if you have never been, you need to go to be able to understand the area and why I say what I say.

Its a small tract of land with a paved runway in poor condition, open hangars for roughly 6 planes and thats about it. Its in the middle of no where, near no major cities. With no pressing use for it as a airport. Rochester is only a few miles away and they have a beautiful airport, with a smooth wide extra long runway, with a excess of fully enclosed hangars and tons of ramp space and alot of land thats not yet utilized.

Mentone would have the most value out of being sold to someone to have as a personal homestead with runway type of thing. Some rich person who wants to live in a small rural area could buy the place, tear everything down, repave the runway and big a mansion on the property. Maybe even have Stan Foster come in and build a fancy stair case for it. That would be the situation where I could see the airport being most valueable.
 

Smack

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ride costs / rules

ride costs / rules

Great discussion.

Newbie rides were mentioned earlier and there was some discussion about costs, rules, and insurance that I would like to expand upon.

Yes, lack of personal/pilot insurance is a barrier for giving rides, but is it possible for the PRA to get a 'blanket' insurance policy (maybe one is already in place for the event) that covers anyone giving rides that may not have their own policy?

FAR 61.113(c) says "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."
If the willing 2-seat gyro pilot could determine the fuel/oil cost, it would seem that 'sharing' these costs with a newbie would bring the price of a flight experience into the $20 range which is affordable to most people.

Brian
 

Sheldon

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There is no way I could see that airport ever selling for near 700 grand.

And there is no way as a airport I could ever see that place bringing in 6-7 grand a month in income.

As a campground, with a runway, its possible the PRA could make some income but not 6-7 grand a month.

Again, if you have never been, you need to go to be able to understand the area and why I say what I say.

Its a small tract of land with a paved runway in poor condition, open hangars for roughly 6 planes and thats about it. Its in the middle of no where, near no major cities. With no pressing use for it as a airport. Rochester is only a few miles away and they have a beautiful airport, with a smooth wide extra long runway, with a excess of fully enclosed hangars and tons of ramp space and alot of land thats not yet utilized.

Mentone would have the most value out of being sold to someone to have as a personal homestead with runway type of thing. Some rich person who wants to live in a small rural area could buy the place, tear everything down, repave the runway and big a mansion on the property. Maybe even have Stan Foster come in and build a fancy stair case for it. That would be the situation where I could see the airport being most valueable.

Area values I tend to agree, a good chunk of the PRA land is being leased and farmed out... and farm land up here in MI anyway is 2-3K an acre on the top side, that is unless the owner has an inflated sense of value which happens all to often...:sad:

I started this thread in an attempt to get ideas for the club, I do not want to see this even die or go out with a whimper! To generate interest and hopefully some enthusiasm.

My time constraints only allow me a day (sometimes two) at the convention. Every year I get to spend an hour or two cruising the event then (My fault for belonging to several clubs) spend the rest of my time there helping to set up the evenings fireworks.... (one of my screen names is toomanyhobbies)

There has been a lot of real good ideas, sugestions, and some constructive criticism :D and I hope they are carried forth by the BOD or some duly elected group (Delegate authority) :wave:

Lets keep the line going and see if we can do something constructive and just maybe Mentone 2015 will again be the event everyone looks forward to with lots of vendors, aircraft of every kind, (not just rotary) one that they will talk about at Oshkosh in years to come :party:
 
Last edited:

Dean_Dolph

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Zilch!
……I would if it were in Ga or the Carolinas that would be a reasonable distance. So comparing it to Osh is not valid.
I disagree! You just haven’t found a good enough reason to go to Mentone. You have cited reason(s) for not going but I went (only missed one that I can recall) and I was still working at the time.
Yes, those of us fortunate to have lived long enough to retire with enough disposable income to attend these types of events have an advantage. I budget $200/day for a fly in trip and that is starting to get a mite tight. But I know many people that sacrifice other things that they could be spending time and money on to attend Mentone. It boils down to just how important it is to an individual to support the PRA and also get to visit with friends and observe the new developments that usually show up at Mentone. I can’t say there were many new things this year and that is because the typical home built experimental crowd (I don’t consider the European machines home built, sorry!) was way down.
Oshkosh offers a million things for everyone attending and it is being run like a business.....because it is!!!........
I don’t think you will get any argument about the EAA being a well run business although they have had their problems lately also. The fact they have moved, and keep moving, further from their roots have created a significant number of disgruntled members.
……OK so losing money by having the convention a payed event somewhere else is the reason why Mentone became the spot for it?
No, that isn’t the reason but it going to be a challenge for any chapter to convince the PRA board that it won’t happen again. The board simply can’t take a chance because of the PRA’s financial situation.
I don’t know what the thinking was from the two PRA guys that made arrangements to buy the Mentone airport. I can tell you that the convention was supposed to be held at Hearne TX. again in 1991 after a successful one in 1990. But, the city of Hearne suddenly required insurance for the event just a couple of weeks before it was to start. I understand that the amount was enough that it wasn’t reasonable and there wasn’t enough time to shop for it.
So, there was a scramble to find an alternative airport and one was found at Brookville Ohio. Despite the short notice of a change of venue, the attendance at Brookville was good. I suspect that the Hearne experience was the impetus for looking for a permanent spot that the PRA could call home. One was found (actually stolen at the price paid!) and the rest is history.
……Sooooooo I am not seeing the solution being pumping money into it by gracious donors to be the solution nor being the proper medicine for the ailing organization.
I’m sure you know the cliche ‘it takes money to make money’ and this is that type of situation. The PRA has an airport that has the potential of reducing the financial problem considerably if not make it disappear entirely. But it won’t reach that potential without more monetary investment.
……There is a stigma attached to the PRA that is pretty negative as we have watched the public display of power struggle and public display of inability for the BODs to agree on even simple things.
I’m not sure there is a stigma attached or if there was a power struggle. I wasn’t present. There is no doubt that there have been some personality conflicts but that is expected amongst a group as individualistic and diverse as the PRA. Some can’t handle the stress of these types of conflicts or know how to deal with them. In my opinion this is the reason for some of our personnel losses over the years.
……This forum has NOT helped the image of the PRA….
You got that right! It has been stated by several that this forum was the worst thing that ever happened to the PRA. It might be the best thing that ever happened to the experimental rotorcraft community but it definitely has had a negative impact on the PRA. That is why I keep waiting for moderators for the PRA web site forum to step forward so it can become active. It is my understanding the lack of moderators is the only thing keeping it from going live. If the PRA web site forum was active then all discussions pertaining to the PRA could happen there without the noise generated by non members that happens here.
……Then they failed as leaders Dean! I don't know what else to say. Failing leadership might be the real reason for the demise of the PRA.
Failing leadership? Maybe but you have to get your leaders where and when you can. I know on a local level that there is a dearth of volunteers to step in to a leadership position. We’ve been fortunate that those that did step in managed to grow into the position. It has to be a satisfying experience for them to become aware of how much they are helping out.
……From your own experience dealing with me you know how much I do for the sport in the background for several sister chapters.
Yup, I’m personally aware of your contribution and I thank you again for what you have done in the past and what you may be asked to contribute in the future.
……Think about how Doug Barker was elected! Doug bless your heart for taking on this task. You are a gracious person for accepting the nomination.
Doug continues to demonstrate his commitment to the rotorcraft community. And he is making sacrifices to do it! I was lucky to be chapter coordinator when he put Chapter 2 together and I knew then that we had a winner.
 

Vance

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Great discussion.

Newbie rides were mentioned earlier and there was some discussion about costs, rules, and insurance that I would like to expand upon.

Yes, lack of personal/pilot insurance is a barrier for giving rides, but is it possible for the PRA to get a 'blanket' insurance policy (maybe one is already in place for the event) that covers anyone giving rides that may not have their own policy?

FAR 61.113(c) says "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."
If the willing 2-seat gyro pilot could determine the fuel/oil cost, it would seem that 'sharing' these costs with a newbie would bring the price of a flight experience into the $20 range which is affordable to most people.

Brian

The way I interpret the FARs; even expenses can’t be shared in an experimental gyroplane.

When I give rides in The Predator is at my own expense and own risk. I have people sign a release but it has very little legal value for the survivors.

In my opinion the only way to legally charge for a ride in an experimental gyroplane is to be a Certified Flight Instructor (CFI) operating with a Letter 0f Deviation Authority (LODA) and give an introductory lesson. Many Flight Standard District Offices (FSDOs) are becoming more specific about what that entails.

Thank you, Vance
 

Dean_Dolph

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Zilch!
NOW is the time to be talking to other groups about next year's convention.

I hope the new board will start 2015 convention planning early.
Early? How 'bout starting now with an announcement of who the 2015 convention chairman(s) is?
 

AirScooter

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I don’t think you will get any argument about the EAA being a well run business although they have had their problems lately also. The fact they have moved, and keep moving, further from their roots have created a significant number of disgruntled members.

I see both sides of this problem, if the EAA or anyone else doesn't evolve with the customers needs and wants, it looses customers. If it does evolve, it alienates older members who are staying put where they are.
 

Dean_Dolph

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.....I am looking at this from a "MARKETING" standpoint for PRA. The organization numbers are down, for numerous reasons........
Actually, David, according to Robert Rhymer at the general membership meeting, the new PRA members have increased but we are falling short on renewals. But the numbers he announced indicated a net gain in membership.
 

All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
We actually had a gain in membership and a gain in paid convention attendees but folks came and left before Saturday night.

I believe the airport can provide enough revenue to provide real member benefits like discounted group insurance.

But it will take two years to get on the convention schedules. We are about the only place I know that has an airport / drag strip. Camping, cooking concession stand, air conditioned conference room, showers, office, etc. It's just in the middle of nowhere.

Other member benefits we are trying to find for you is storefront software where one day it will offer all thing rotorcraft in one place. Members products too.
Now that we should be able to do fairly quickly and may get folks to join and renew?
 

GyroDoug

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If that's the case I must be the only one working guy out there who is not able to take off from work and travel 2 days unless of course if I flew.
Sorry but not everyone is retired in this sport. I work almost 7 days every week and don't have the time to do the trip.
I would if it were in Ga or the Carolinas that would be a reasonable distance. So comparing it to Osh is not valid.
Oshkosh offers a million things for everyone attending and it is being run like a business.....because it is!!! And a good business at that.



OK so losing money by having the convention a payed event somewhere else is the reason why Mentone became the spot for it?
If your attendance is gradually disappearing than your expenses for Mentone becomes a loss!
Sooooooo I am not seeing the solution being pumping money into it by gracious donors to be the solution nor being the proper medicine for the ailing organization.
There is a stigma attached to the PRA that is pretty negative as we have watched the public display of power struggle and public display of inability for the BODs to agree on even simple things.
This forum has NOT helped the image of the PRA. I for one would NOT like anyone question a decision I make for Sunstate on a public forum where you don't have to look into my eyes and ask that question.
People tend to be a little looser in their phraseology behind their keyboards than face to face. That's what meetings are for!



Then they failed as leaders Dean! I don't know what else to say. Failing leadership might be the real reason for the demise of the PRA.
From your own experience dealing with me you know how much I do for the sport in the background for several sister chapters.
I do lead by example! I also expect our members to contribute because that's the only way the we are to grow. Note I didn't say survive!!!!!!
Think about how Doug Barker was elected! Doug bless your heart for taking on this task. You are a gracious person for accepting the nomination.
But the truth be told nobody wanted it and they couldn't leave the room fast enough when the couple of board members resigned! And that's the truth.
We need to start speaking the truth and face the reality and admit where we hurt in order for the doctor to figure out what the illness is........

Gabor,

I do not want to offend you in any way or start any kind of a debate with you, but I would like to make some comments based on some of your statements above.

1- I think a very high percentage of people involved in the PRA are still working for a living. I know that I still have to work and support a family. This year I have attended Bensen Days, Rotors Over the Rockies, Mentone and I will probably make it to El Mirage also. I am not financially wealthy, and I only have 15 days a year of Flex time that I can use for Vacation and or Sick Leave but that's all the time I have period. (other than weekends) I attend as much as I possibly can, but I can't be there for every day of every event, that is just impossible. But it is a high priority for me to be to as many events as I can be, so I do everything I can to be there.

For example at Mentone this year, I took three days off from work and I drove by myself because I couldn't find anyone else from my area that wanted to go with me. I left straight from work and drove almost all night Tues. night (I did pull over and sleep for two hours) and all day Weds day (26 hr drive) to get to Mentone for Thursday, Friday and Saturday. As soon as the Banquet was over Saturday evening, I started driving home and didn't stop until I got to UT. Sunday night, just in time to catch a good nights sleep before going to work the next morning. I realize that not everyone is willing to make that kind of sacrifice to attend a convention, but the truth is, we all do what it takes for something we want bad enough. I don't spend all 15 of my Vacation days doing Gyro stuff because I have a wife and family that feel I need to spend some time with them too. But I do spend over half of my available time attending Gyro Events, because that is a high priority in my life right now.

And I see people at every Event that I attend, that have traveled much farther than I have to be there. So I don't honestly believe that distance to travel is the determining factor. I believe distance is simply a good excuse for someone that is looking for a reason to give for not attending a function. If a person really wants to attend an event, they will find a way. Just like the people that really want to fly Gyroplanes, find a way to overcome all of the varied obstacles that seem to conspire against them as soon as they start trying to become a Gyro pilot. Only the ones that really want it bad, typically stay the course and do what it takes to arrive at that goal.

2- I agree with most of your second paragraph. However you are obviously listening to so much negative talk about the PRA and the Convention that you are accepting these biased and erroneous opinions as fact, when the reality of the situation is that the PRA is not continuing to decrease in numbers. In fact membership numbers are up several hundred (compared to this time last year). Even though you have heard differently here on the forum, gate receipts were also up this year compared to last year. It's true that we have gone through some tough times for the last few years, but I believe it is obvious to anyone that looks at the numbers, that we have turned that trend around, and are now on our way back up.

The convention continues to be our second biggest revenue source. Right now one of our main points of focus has been, how we can increase revenues being generated by the airport property, throughout the rest of the year? It isn't easy to do, and it is requiring additional capital. But thanks to some very generous people, that care deeply about the PRA, and are willing to do something to help, rather than just sit back and make suggestions about what everyone else ought to do to fix the problem, it looks like we are going to be able to move forward this year on some capital improvements that will not only make it nicer for our members when they attend the convention, but will also increase our opportunity to bring in additional funds from outside of our membership base. The airport is a great asset that simply hasn't been developed to anywhere's near it's full potential yet, but we are on the right path to go in that direction.

3- While I appreciate your kind words about me in your last paragraph, and I certainly wouldn't argue that there weren't any other Board Members trying to be elected to the position of president, I think your general understanding of the PRA and it's current position are overly influenced by pessimistic and negative opinions that you seem to be exposed to, to the point that you fail to understand what is really happening. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has a right to interpret the facts the way they want to, but if you really want to understand a more accurate picture of the PRA today, you ought to be talking to people who serve on the Board and are intimately involved in the details of running the organization, and really know what is going on, rather than listening to people who aren't even current members.

I greatly appreciate all you have done and continue to do for your local chapter. It is because of people like you that we have other "Regional Gyro Events) in areas other than Mentone, so there are Events that people can attend without driving thousands of mile to get to. But I wish that chapters would remember that they are a subset of the national PRA organization. The only way people typically get that, is when they travel to the National Convention and get to see a part of the bigger picture. Instead of seeing ourselves as competing organizations, we should see ourselves as all on the same team, and be trying to support one another. Together we are so much stronger than we can possible be individually, on our own. I want you to know I really appreciate all you do, and I hope in the future we can find ways to work more closely together, since I believe we both want the same thing. (to see our sport grow and thrive)

Doug Barker
PRA Pres.
 

Smack

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The way I interpret the FARs; even expenses can’t be shared in an experimental gyroplane.

Vance, I quoted the FAR that says you can.
Please quote the FAR (or other reg) that you think says you cannot.

Thank you,
Brian
 

Vance

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The way I interpret the FARs; even expenses can’t be shared in an experimental gyroplane.

Vance, I quoted the FAR that says you can.
Please quote the FAR (or other reg) that you think says you cannot.

Thank you,
Brian

What I wrote was the way I interpret the FARs not what I think.

The operating limitations for both the experimental gyroplanes I fly specifically prohibit flying for compensation or hire.

I asked the FSDOs because I wondered if that included sharing expenses and the three that I asked interpret compensation to include shared expenses as compensation.

§ 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with § 91.309; or

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.

(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has—

(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or

(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44881, July 27, 2004]

Several FSDOs I have been in contact with have interpreted this to mean that money can’t change hands for a flight in an experimental aircraft unless it is for training with a LODA.

It is not an enforcement priority at this time.

I am often confused by the FARs so my interpretation may be in error.

I would suggest the pilot of an experimental check with the FSDO where the event is held to get their interpretation.

Thank you, Vance
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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There has been a great deal of discussion about this, but here are the FAR's:

Part 61 deals with the Pilot:

Sec. 61.113 — Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Sec. 61.315 — What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?
(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(b) You may share the operating expenses of a flight with a passenger, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenses, or aircraft rental fees. You must pay at least half the operating expenses of the flight.

(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:

(1) That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.

(2) For compensation or hire.

(3) In furtherance of a business.

Part 91 deals with the aircraft and "Experimental" which is what the vast majority of us fly:
Sec. 91.319 — Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.
(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

So the million dollar question is:
Define "COMPENSATION"?
A review of FAR 1.1 does not list a definition for "compensation"; which leaves it up to interpretation to a local FSDO.

A Private rated Pilot in a "Type" or "Light Sport" certified aircraft and
a Sport Pilot in a "Light Sport" certified aircraft
CAN SHARE expenses!

However, neither can share in an "Experimental" certified aircraft.
Welcome to "Catch 22!"
 
Last edited:

JEFF TIPTON

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The FAA has a very broad definition of what is compensation.

The FAA has a long-standing policy for defining compensation in very broad terms. See Harrington Interpretation; see also Legal Interpretation to Joseph A. Kirwan (May 27,2005) (defining "compensation" as "the receipt of anything of value"). Any reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc., if conditioned on the pilot operating the aircraft) is compensation. Id Additionally, the logging of flight time is compensation if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft. Id The Harrington Interpretation provides a detailed analysis of whether receipt of lodging, transportation, and meals is compensation, which is the touchstone of your inquiry:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faa.gov%2Fabout%2Foffice_org%2Fheadquarters_offices%2Fagc%2Fpol_adjudication%2Fagc200%2Finterpretations%2Fdata%2Finterps%2F2013%2FHowell-PatriotsJetTeam%2520-%2520%282013%29%2520Legal%2520Interpretation.pdf&ei=MDP2U72DCcinyATE44KYBA&usg=AFQjCNFrBOVkA1Ov19fhOh-mEfSowuv81Q&bvm=bv.73373277,d.cGE

file:///C:/Downloads/macpherson-jonesday%20-%20(2014)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

file:///C:/Downloads/stoner%20-%20(2013)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

These are just a few of the many interpretations issued by the FAA legal council.
 

GyroRon

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Great discussion.

Newbie rides were mentioned earlier and there was some discussion about costs, rules, and insurance that I would like to expand upon.

Yes, lack of personal/pilot insurance is a barrier for giving rides, but is it possible for the PRA to get a 'blanket' insurance policy (maybe one is already in place for the event) that covers anyone giving rides that may not have their own policy?

FAR 61.113(c) says "A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."
If the willing 2-seat gyro pilot could determine the fuel/oil cost, it would seem that 'sharing' these costs with a newbie would bring the price of a flight experience into the $20 range which is affordable to most people.

Brian

You know, speaking of " rides " .... I gave alot of rides. I never charged for any of them, but many people offered me a little something to help cover costs and whatnot. But boy did that ever piss off the CFI's.... That issue alone and the constant fighting and bickering from the CFI's, especially Steve McGowan and Jim Logan, were two of the bigger reasonings behind me deciding to sell my machine and use my free time pursuing other hobbies. Those CFI's will argue that they incur great expense in becoming a CFI and then great expense in getting to said event, and great expense in setting up as a vendor and so on, and they don't want to see ANYONE giving people rides, other than other CFI's. Of course not all CFI's care, some come to the events to enjoy the event, and they make their money giving dual instruction, not selling 15 minute intro flights. But enough of them do care, that they make it anything but worth it to those that do want to offer someone a short flight in their two seat gyro.

As for the CFI's giving rides for 20$.... don't hold your breath. Thats what I paid for my first intro flight in a ultralight airplane 20 years ago. They aren't going to take someone up for even a hop on the runway for less than 50$ and I really don't blame them. Of course I think the CFI's would or should be using their time to TRAIN their students, not have their students travel to a event expecting to get in some dual and instead sit on their butt all week under the CFI's tent while CFI man gives everyone and their brother a ride.
 

SandL

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ideally
the guy giving rides removes the stick in the passenger seat so he cant receive instruction.
The guy giving the ride feeds those keen enough to the CFI and gains a commission based on the 1 hours training that the CFI gives to this new student.
The guy giving the ride is therefore not instructing, the CFI gets students rather than "joy riders".
Just another way of doing it and everyone wins.
The guy giving the "joy rides" acts as a filter to find out who is serious and he is not being paid for the flight, he is being paid commission by the CFI for introducing a new client to his business. The CFI's skills will be being used as a CFI not as a passenger carrier. everyone works together for mutual benefit.
Peter
 

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
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Why remove the stick?

Its ridiculous that only in the gyro community, there is some kind of expectation that only CFI's give rides.

I don't see people with their own two or more seat airplanes being asked to remove the second yoke or stick if they want to fly folks around and they aren't CFI's.
 
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