Mentone 2015

cgmg

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El Paso, IL.
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Empty hangar right now, have owned and flown Air Command & RAF
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Ron, Scott, and Barry:

You all three made good comments about what's happening with our sport.

One good trend for our sport is the introduction of all the new European gyros, at what is an affordable price for middle income people. One of the instructors I talked to said the majority of his students/buyers are in their 50's, and are at the point they have enough disposable income to purchase a gyro that's more acceptable to the general flying community.

Unfortunately for our sport, the majority of our members seem to be people who are flying on a shoe-string budget, and the first thing they'll give up is supporting the PRA. They see the $50 membership cost as gas they could have flown with. If they're not willing to pay the membership fee, they are for sure not able, or willing to, spend the time and money to attend Mentone.

I didn't hear the actual numbers, but I believe even at Sunstate the attendance was down considerably this year. And Florida has a ton of gyro enthusiasts/owners located there.

Our only hope right now is that the PRA can survive long enough for the economy to improve, or until the influx of new CFI's and DPE's increases the pilot numbers enough to support doing more for the members.
 

cburg

Newbie
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May 31, 2012
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Houston
What is happening is that Gyros are capturing sales from Trikes, PPCs, HGs, FW (both current and potential). I think this positive trend will continue. As a Gyro convert from all of the other categories...gyros are better...for a long list of reasons...and I guess many other converts and newbies agree.

We have this in our favor...

This is why I push to get other categories flying with us. Many of them can be converted...like I was.

I think it's easier to convert a pilot than get a new one.

Ron, Scott, and Barry:

You all three made good comments about what's happening with our sport.

One good trend for our sport is the introduction of all the new European gyros, at what is an affordable price for middle income people. One of the instructors I talked to said the majority of his students/buyers are in their 50's, and are at the point they have enough disposable income to purchase a gyro that's more acceptable to the general flying community.

Unfortunately for our sport, the majority of our members seem to be people who are flying on a shoe-string budget, and the first thing they'll give up is supporting the PRA. They see the $50 membership cost as gas they could have flown with. If they're not willing to pay the membership fee, they are for sure not able, or willing to, spend the time and money to attend Mentone.

I didn't hear the actual numbers, but I believe even at Sunstate the attendance was down considerably this year. And Florida has a ton of gyro enthusiasts/owners located there.

Our only hope right now is that the PRA can survive long enough for the economy to improve, or until the influx of new CFI's and DPE's increases the pilot numbers enough to support doing more for the members.
 

Brent Drake

Gyroplane Instructor
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
2,063
Location
Shelbyville, Indiana
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Pipers/Cessna's/gyro's
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2014 convention had several last minute changes we are correcting for next year.

We have many good ideas but, lack of volunteers to complete.

We are going to ask for many more volunteers for 2015. If someone is coming and has some time please step up and volunteer.

Volunteers is the heart of the PRA.
 

SWaRC

PRA Chapter 26
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
432
Location
Wauchula
I don't think the location matters. Its a long drive to indiana but its also a long drive to florida. No one is asking sunstate to move Bensen Days to texas or Georgia, etc....

I am not sure if you are not aware of it or choose to ignore the fact that Bensen Days is a Sunstate Wing and Rotor Club event!!!!!
We are located in Florida, therefor it only makes sense that the event takes place here.
It is NOT a PRA event. We just happened to be a PRA chapter.
So your comparison was not even valid!
And of course for YOU it is half way but you kind of conveniently forgot the people who are not. I am speaking of the South and the Southwest.
Do the apples to apples thing. Works better.
The convention WAS traveling around like a gypsy wagon in the old days.
So if you had the inside talks to other presidents as I do you'd realize that giving a chapter a chance to put on a show makes them proud and will go out of their way to outdo the others!
I know for a fact that Chapter 62 or our sister Peach State could kick butt putting up the event!
How do I know? I talk to them.
Besides they don't burn out like the folks in Indiana doing it year after year.
But than again I know nothing about putting up events...
 
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SandL

Active Member
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Aug 27, 2011
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Royal Wootton Bassett... UK
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Bensen Merlin dragon wings Rotax 532
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400hrs (4,000 instructional launches) gliding, 200 fixed wing, 100 gyro
for a few years gyros in the UK was the fastest growing part of general aviation.
the Euro gyros grew from 2 or 3 to about 100 in just about 4-5 years. rather than people leaving the home built gyros , it was a new breed a different market, those reasonably wealthy that wanted something different than the standard spam can 150mph burger run.
it was pitched as a new generation, smart slick and safe open cockpit sport flying, yet lower cost than a helicopter.
so with an extra 100 or so gyros you would expect the BRA (our small version of the PRA) to be booming ... sadly it's not. I have not been a member for about 5 years , so this year I have joined to find out what I am missing.... the answer was I'm missing nothing, nothing at all. just 2 spot landing competitions, and only eurogyros entered. during all this membership has stayed static with about 100 members.
So if Eurogyro sales do take off in the USA I still believe you will need to give a benefit for the $50 PRA membership fee. members will need to get at least $50 of perceived value from their membership for example $60 discount for insurance.
It may be worth having a club meet during the week and follow with public days at the week end, targeted at trial lessons. introduction to the gyro concept. turn it into the light airshow, para motor balloons, formation of 3 gyros with smoke, make it a very light aviation show. on the ground you could also include home built cars and motorbikes. end the fireworks and spend the money on marketing and advertising contribute to marketing for the CFIs. maybe write a free monthly column for the EAA magazine. At any gyro show, meet, fly-in if a new guy arrives at the gate allocate a mentor, a guy to show him around and explain, this may need about 10 volunteers / sales people with lively characters to stand in line ready to sell the idea of gyros to the new guy. Maybe during the week the PRA should look inwards, at the weekend it should look outwards.
what about building a basic gyro in 1 week with first flight at the weekend. live video feed as the build goes on. 3 teams of 3 working on a 24 hour shift ! If people are leaving aviation due to cost , then we have an opportunity by proving that owning a gyro is lower cost that owning a fixed wing maybe there will be a movement away from fixed wing to a lower cost and more fun gyro thus keeping them in the air.
there are many things that can be done in my opinion , it just needs money and marketing and time.
I'm not in the USA, I have been to Bensen days, but not to Mentone yet, (just missed this year) so please forgive me for poking my nose in, but sometimes an outside view can be useful
 

barnstorm2

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Cincinnati, Ohio
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We were told that this airport was going to make money. What happened?

The airport DOES make money.

The airport COULD make enough money to support the entire PRA, make memberships near free, pay for all kinds of programs, even a paper magazine if it were warranted.

It is 80% the way there but so far... not enough people with enough time have stepped up to do the remaining 20%.

With the exception of the high-amp outlets Mentone has infrastructure that other orgs and clubs only dream of.

What we are missing is a Airport Marketing and Management Team.

Right now our customers only find out about the Airport through word of mouth.

The airport website has been down for months, it went down because we could not get internal communication in time to simply renew it before it got deleted.

Hopefully, John Rountree and his volunteers will have it back up and running soon.

With the airport only at 40-50% utilization the PRA could afford to have conventions at other locations, additional events and conventions and programs that would knock peoples socks off.

None of that is going to happen unless a dynamic energetic team of people step up to manage and market the airport.

.
 

tx_swordguy

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Gainesville tx
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Dominator ultrawhite
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80+ and climbing
I just came back from Indiana and got to attend my first PRA convention at Mentone. I was only able to go fri because I was actually in Indianapolis for a drum and bugle corps show for my son. I absolutely loved it! It was a small fly in, but I expected about what I found so I was not discouraged at all. Met some new people and saw some people I already knew. I am sorry to hear all the negative comments. Stan I am glad you brought the pilon races back, just wish I had been able to see more of the activities. I will be going back to Indy next yr from Aug 6-8 so I hope next yrs convention will be about that same time so I can go again. The economy is the single biggest factor I believe, after all that is the reason the military teams couldn't perform last year and the govt pays for them to perform. Anyway I had fun and thats all that matters,,,,,,at least to me :)
 

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
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Some comments

Some comments

from the people I interviewed for the E-zine article!

Several had come over after Oshkosh & arrived on the 'early-bird' days ... were disappointed at the low numbers of flying gyros. Tuesday - Wed were quiet ... weather limited some flying - but it was a great time to look at the gyros & talk to owners hanging around & new arrivals were coming in steadily!

Others were just excited to be there & see such a variety of gyros & their enthusiastic pilots in one place.

If you don't appreciate the dawn noise of the "iron-rooster" flier ... stay off site ... it's part of the major gyro event magic! I LOVE the sound of that wake-up call .... if my POS hadn't spat-the-dummy ... I'd be right out there at that wonderful time of day!

There was only 1 PPC that flew in .... i didn't see any others - at dawn & dusk as in past years ... that was sad! the PPC field was deserted - as was the vendors area! The Amish pie & ice-cream was REALLY missed!

Maybe a volunteer next year could order & collect a bunch of pies & tubs of ice-cream from them & sell out of the canteen???? ( a little less ambience ... without the Amish themselves ... but if it is not profitable for them ... so be it ... but we could still get the goodies!!!)

I thought Thursday & Friday were GREAT .... number of gyros on display & flying peaked on Friday ... then about 1/3 of the campers packed up & left! :confused: ?????? WHY .... limited time off ... had to get home???? Saturday competitions & banquet ... no reason to stay - except for locals & die-hards!???:wacko: SAD! - :eek:hwell: ... put it down to the "economy"????

those of us who like to fly when it is less busy early in the week enjoy the quiet of the pre-event days!

I wonder if an (organized) hour mid afternoon ( usual to have a bit of a flying lull about that time of day!)could be set aside for "practice" for the competitions ... so weekday visitors could see some of the gyro fun held on Saturday ... may also encourage other pilots than the usual top-guns to participate without the pressure to perform for awards! A target painted on the runway for egg (or flour) bombs ... a flour-line for spot landings & airboss controlled line-up in & out of the box to practice pylon race 8's ... say 20 - 30 min slots for each activity!

It would also be good to have a forum for newbies - basic intro to gyros & Q&A time on these days ... maybe the 1-2 slot! (Wed/Thurs/Fri) I was constantly talking & sharing my passion & answering thing as people walked by my gyro ( bloody POC hanger queen!!! GRRR) ... BUT I loved to interact with all the lookers & was thanked several times for telling them about gyros & how they work!

I'm mystified about the comments about the lack of friendliness & openness to newbies on the flightline! maybe they are shy & I need to look harder to seek them out! plenty found me & were not afraid to ask lots of Q's!

I was most impressed to hear that there were 22 CFI's in attendance ... all but a few with their machines ... Greg G held a CFI meeting that I wish i'd remembered to attend - to report on! :eek: ... hopefully Greg or another one may give us a report on anything that was discussed & worth publishing!

There were lots of opportunities to fly with CFI's ... many in the new "Eurogyros' & Steve with Black Chris Burgess with snowbird, Dwayne Hunn & his RAF - well represented the "old-style" types.

My first Mentone was the BIG 50th ... so comparing any to that will be unfair ... each event has had it's magic for me ... always :first: the camaraderie with fellow builders & pilots & renewing ties with people I get to see once or twice a year ..... the sharing of the passion of rotor-flight with the newbies who come looking & asking ... the magic of flying in a new area ... getting some flight time with new CFI's & the great social times between activities ...

For me the few days goes by way too fast & I wish I could be more places at once & do more of the activities / volunteer jobs!

In the past I have enjoyed judging ... this time co-ordinated the thrust tests - thankful to Carl S. who saved the day with making his pull scale available for our use! I was surprised at the crowd that gathered to watch! sadly for others who wished to have their machine hang-tested ... the promised equipment did not make it to the event! :( :noidea:

Time to get an A-frame made & figure out a good place /time to do thrust tests ... without breaking the no-prop rule - outside the runway/hold shortline area!

I'm going to offer a daily ( 3 days) newbie forum - intro to gyros & Q&Asession ... with a few other older hands ... for next year & address the "shy-ones" ... or those who just see the old-boys clique & feel they are not approachable!
 

Sheldon

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Battle Creek Mi.
we had a printed Mag at one time but due to economics it had to be put to rest, however there is Powered Sport flying Magazine http://www.psfmagazine.com/about/ which I feel does a nice job filling the gap...

but this is a good discussion, lots of ideas, ones that can be put to the BOD and we really need to breath more life into this real fun sport and not let it die with a whimper!!!
 

barnstorm2

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Cincinnati, Ohio
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Sheldon is right. There are LOTS of good ideas in this thread.

Ron, is correct when he says that Sun state is a poor comparison because all they have to do is open the hangars and they instantly have one of the largest fly-ins in the country.

However, there is much to learn from BDays. It sure seems to be that work is done on BDays year around and planning starts the year before, is this true?

Clubs like the PPG/PPC guys bring in big $$, help us get vendors, work well in our flying space and we have had loads of converts come over to the "gyro side". NOW is the time to be talking to other groups about next year's convention.

I hope the new board will start 2015 convention planning early.

.
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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Dickson, Tn. USA
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Hello Brian:
Who was that guy that decided he HAD to fly his 2-stroke around and around the campers BEFORE DAWN? Two days in a row. No sleeping in. Is that neighbor-friendly? Yeah, I guess that I could have mentioned to him that such activity is obnoxious, but I'm a "newbie" and maybe this is acceptable there. That's just my opinion on such activity, if you want it, and maybe that affects the number of campers.

I will say I am sorry, if I was the one which woke you up!
But, if the opportunity presents itself - I will be the Iron Rooster!
If it was me, I did not fly "around" the campground. I stayed in the "box" on the other side of the runway.
ps: I will try to bring the MAC powered Bensen next year. It can be heard for over 3 miles and seen too. lol.
That bird can really crow!!!

The atmosphere is very layed-back. I like that. Grass roots! Everyone that I spoke to was very approachable, but no one (except Pam) approached ME, the newbie that helps to grow the sport. Now, I don't suggest EVERYONE talk to the newbies, but you might think about ways to promote inclusiveness or PULL people into the group. It seems very clique-ish which is probably not unusual for this extremely small segment of a small segment of the population. You want to increase the number of members? This might be another area to investigate. Why put it on the newbie to bust into the group? That's against human nature for most of us.
Was there a newbie social get-together? Maybe any kind of social hour? I may have missed it, if there was. Some kind of ice-breaker?

I hear you! I get it!
and I have been there!
I understand!!!
However, when I come to an event like "Mentone" I an looking to hangout and socialize with my "Buds" which I have made over the years. I and we enjoy being around each other and telling stories and doing what we do!
I will always stop and talk to anybody! Newbie, Wannabe, Maybe, Spectator, whatever, whomever.
But;
there are times when you just want to go to the restroom or get a "kerocooked" hotdog or to the snack shack and have a cup of coffee. and not answer any of the same questions which you have answered for 50 times today and yesterday.
I am sorry for it seeming clickish; but it sorta is.
There are those individuals which show up at the flyins and for several years they are "gonna" build a gyro. Then the story changes and they are buying parts and building a gyro (another 5 years) then they are actually building for the next five years. these individuals are the gonna/wanna be's and after a career of fly-ins, nothing changes.
"I" sorta fit that category, for about 10 years. I would drive 700 - 1000 miles round trip and "no machine"; but I would get with my Instructor and get a couple hours of ride/instruction during an event. And, I felt like I was always looking in at them.
I decide to bring the Bensen to a fall fly-in at Shelbyville, Il., and I flew it on Friday evening there. Then on Saturday and Sunday. The whole atmosphere changed, and I felt like I was finally accepted by the group.
I was, they saw me flying "solo" safely and enjoying our sport. They accepted me because to them - I had become a "doing it-be" I was a GYRO Pilot.

If during the Mentone event, you tried to talk to me and if I seemed a bit distant, then I am sorry! I do not recall being short with anybody. I will talk gyros' with anybody, and enjoy it.

Oh!
When I come to an event, I come to #1 - FLY, #2 - Socialize, #3 - Sleep.
Generally - at first light and just before sunset - are the best times to fly!!!
If you are at a flyin and want to be an Iron Rooster; find me and we will schedule a "pre dawn" meeting.
And at first light, I will let you climb into my backseat and we will "crow" together.
ps:
I have the brightest plumage in the flock!
 
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cwakamatsu

Air Command 582
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My first fly-in and first real exposure to the Gyro community was at El Mirage, Sept 2013. When I heard the first Iron Rooster over head just as light came, I couldn't get out of my sleeping bag fast enough! To me, this is what I will always remember and cherish at fly-ins!
 

SWaRC

PRA Chapter 26
Joined
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Messages
432
Location
Wauchula
Ron, is correct when he says that Sun state is a poor comparison because all they have to do is open the hangars and they instantly have one of the largest fly-ins in the country.

That statement would definitely reduce the work and advertisement we do...... not to mention the absolutely largest gain in membership in the last 2 years. Our club has gone to 67 members as of last week with our newest member. So to say that we just have to open the hangars and have the largest fly in is a little misleading and rather leaving the hard work and the welcoming spirit of the club out of the equation. Without members there would be no gyros either in the club. So if the numbers mean anything than yes we are the largest and most active in the country and probably just a simple club gathering is larger than some of the other fly ins. We work hard and we have a lot of good people putting in real work to keep this club running and grow.

However, there is much to learn from BDays. It sure seems to be that work is done on BDays year around and planning starts the year before, is this true?
Yes one week after Bensen Days we have already began the plans for 2015 It turns out that Bensen Days will fall on 11-18 of April of 2015. Getting ideas from members and voted on a few changes that will make the next event even better. You can NOT wait till the last second with your T-shirt design or awards. You can NOT wait till the last second with your vendors and volunteers or you will encounter chaos. You can NOT wait till the last second with advertising on social media, newspapers and Radio and TV! So yes we do this all year long.
................................
 
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AirScooter

Scott Waggoner
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I think this thread can be good for the PRA if the board and influential members listen and go in the direction or directions that the PRA customers want. (the members)

I know Stan and Roundtree and others put in time to try to make the convention interesting and progress.

I also know some clubs are growing, look at Sunstate, look at Peach State. Looks like the PRA could do whatever they are doing.

I think there isn't enough advertising, no one knows it exists outside of gyro world.

One way to get exposure, I have mentioned before, get a booth or space at airventure. 600,000 to 700,000 folks going to that convention, some of those will notice the presence and ask questions.

More than one on this tread have mentioned the unapproachable feel that they get at fly ins. Perception rules, whether it is true or not.

Barry spends hours giving free rides anytime he goes somewhere gyro related. I am sure others do as well. That is part of what is needed. And no, I have never seen him take money for it. Not even a portion of the gas cost. Now that is doing something for the sport as an individual. i know others do the same and more of that is needed.

Club CFIs at the local level would be a big shot in the arm or at least a CFI at the local fly ins that are held.

Unfortunately, in this sport, the customer has to be created so there is a customer to serve. There aren't existing customers that you have to win over to be in the PRA. They have to be created at the local level to become members. And if the PRA doesn't do anything for that customer as he is created, what value does the PRA have to the newly created potential customer(potential member)? It is kind of a catch 22. But the growth has to start at the local levels. And some are doing quite well at it.

We intend to try here in NC.
 

StanFoster

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Paxton, Il
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I was on the board and was frustrated that I wasn't coming up with any solutions....except to just try to add instead of take from the convention. If its picking up a bag of garbage, or picking up a pitch fork of hot dogs and cooking them, its helping a little. I added a little to the convention, but nothing compared to some that were working all the time, but at least I kept some tension on the line.

I had a wonderful time and though the attendance was down and the crowds were not like Mentone and Bensen Days used to have, there still wasn't enough time to hang out with all the interesting people I wanted to visit with.

Myself, I was very amazed at how much fun it was.
 

birdy

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Alice Springs-central Oz.
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open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
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Buggerall people, plenty of free airspace, sounds like my kinda show.

Mite have to book a boat ticket for next year n pinch sumones gyro while they aint lookn.

And Stan wouldnt want to leave the key in his machine, coz id love to take it for a ...... Gentle blap. ;)
 

cburg

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Seems like it's human nature to act and feel that way in new situations...churches, clubs, jobs, wherever. Usually both parties have to overcompensate to fill the initial void. Ice breakers sometimes work. Perhaps each attendee pilots & non-pilots can have the microphone (throughout the day during downtime) for a couple minutes to introduce themselves. Not a speech…just who you are, where you’re from, why you’re there, what you fly. This can fill some dead time on the PA and put a face to a name. Might help…

More than one on this tread have mentioned the unapproachable feel that they get at fly ins. Perception rules, whether it is true or not.
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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Dickson, Tn. USA
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Hello Brian:
I did pay $50 for a short 15-minute ride in Craig's MTO. That was my very first gyro ride and I loved it. Way too short, but a good first step and demonstration of what gyro flying is all about. Thanks, Craig.
I understand that the CFI's there would like to make a few $$$ for their efforts, but $200/hr is a tad steep for most of the folks. No one else (non-CFI) offered to give me a ride, but a few pilots/owners entertained my endless questions (thanks Bob, Doug, Pam, Jane, Greg).
The EAA has the Young Eagles program that provides free rides for youngsters. Does PRA have anything similar? No one offered to share their toys with me. You don't HAVE to, just sayin' that's another way to get people interested. I'll buy LOTS of gas !!

None of us can offer a ride for compensation, not even the Instructors. The only machines in the US are the Air & Space 18A and the McCulloch J2, these two examples are type certified; and the Pilot can legally share expenses.
Our machines are "Experimental" and we cannot be compensated.
The Instructors have a "LODA" (letter of deviation authorization) from the FAA on
their specific machine, and can ONLY receive compensation for "INSTRUCTION ONLY". They cannot give a ride and get a slick 20 for fuel; according to the FAR's.
I and many others have given rides. My fuel cost is a 'modest' $50 per hour. I am normally burning 6+ gallons per hour solo and when someone climbs into the rear seat - it goes to a solid 8 gallons per hour. The two stoke pre-mix oil is approx. $11.00 per bottle. So, 8 x $5.70 (100LL)= $45.70 + $2.75 (oil) = ouch!!!
The average short ride is 20 minutes, which means I have spent $20 bucks on fuel only. Then add the maintenance costs. To fly is not cheap! I cannot afford to give too many rides. And neither can the Instructors. All of us are feeling the crunch from the current economics!!!
Oh!
And above all this, only a very few can afford to buy insurance. When you mention "Experimental Gyroplane" to an agent, it scares the crap out of them. Then they counter and the premium scares the crap out of you!
Even though we accept the risk and liability and we explain this to a rider. Let something happen and we will see how fast that they or their heirs will run to the Lawyers.
 
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Gyro28866

David McCutchen
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Dickson, Tn. USA
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Benson B7m & B8m, Dominator II; Kolb Mark III Classic
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Brian:
The standing offer still exists:
Call me or text me or find me at a "fly-in"
And,
we will be the "Iron Rooster" and crow - together

and it is FREE TO YOU!!!
 
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