Mentone 2015

Mike484

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Actually, Magni did used to advertise in the PRA magazine, that is where I first saw them. Maybe someone just needs to approach them and ask if they will advertise in the e-Zine and support the PRA, I know several Euorogyro pilots that are PRA members.

If we reach out to the euro-type gyros and embrace them rather than shun them, I can only see a positive influence. The home built gyros will never go away as long as we have any type of gyros. There are a lot more people wanting to fly gyros than there are ones that can afford an $70,000+ machine.

The high end fixed wings have not drowned out the home builds, the EAA seems to survive well.
 

Vance

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WOAH FELLAS...... what IS going on here!???????

Vance & Dean ... you are both super guys to be around @ fly-ins & Dean is a fellow Chap 62 member ...... I hate to see differing opinions like this blow up into forum - keyboard hostility!

The Eurogyro's ... ARE the evolution of Bensen designs .... properly tested aviation-engineered construction for "mass-production" ... for a new era of moneyed gyro enthusiasts!

Although the PRA ... originated for the Bensen's - at the time the predominant low-cost design for garage project homebuilder's ..... it too has evolved & embraced ALL ROTORCRAFT .... gyro's helo's & models!

I don't understand the :flame: friction between the "two camps" .... the old & the new designs ..... we ALL LOVE TO FLY (& build) OUR PERSONAL /POPULAR ROTORCRAFT ..... & share the fun & adventures with our like-minded mates!

Perhaps a more old fashioned civil - & less :argue: aggro-critical discourse should be encouraged here! Look to appreciate the commonality rather than antagonize the natural evolution of design & the newcomers to our small world of rotorheads!!

I am sorry you misunderstood my post Chris.

I have no desire for conflict with Dean and I am not looking for his support.

Dean has made it clear how he feels about one of the gyroplanes I fly, maybe both.

I would like to know why.

I would like to know if there are other PRA members that feel the way Dean does and why they feel that way.

I feel a kinship with all gyroplane enthusiasts and don’t relate to Dean’s perspective.

Perhaps someone will explain it to me.

Regards, Vance
 

StanFoster

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In my opinion....we all need to pull in the same direction. As too often happens, people will knock down their brick wall as fast as they build it.

Lets just all cut some slack.
 

jcarleto

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I'm thinking this thread wandered a bit...but when in Rome...

I believe, as a gyroplane enthusiast, that anything with a rotor on it is interesting to me. Though, especially if it is a gyroplane. As a builder, I look for things that would be useful or an improvement to my build...or future builds. I really don't care if the device/modification/gadget/method is presented to me on a scratch build gyroplane, a factory build gyroplane or a helicopter.

Magazines that capture my interest have a variety of articles and are rich with content. I may choose to ignore some articles and read others or perhaps read some sooner rather than later. When I compare earlier PRA magazines to the latest variety, what I see is thin content in the recent versions.

LET ME SAY RIGHT NOW that I respect the hard work that goes into the editing, production and distribution of the PRA eZine. I believe that is being done as well as may be expected. The problem is that the content has become really light. The contributed articles from industry and private sources are almost non-existent. My thanks to anyone who has recently contributed an article...this complaint does not apply specifically to you.

Focusing on one type of gyroplane content over another is just adding another filter to what is already approaching pure nothingness. This is a bad idea. It may be time to talk about limiting the content when there becomes a problem keeping monthly issues under 50 pages (or some other appropriate size limit), but not when one struggles to hit 10 pages.

I have heard many people complain about the eZine. Most of them don't enjoy reading a PDF. I personally feel that if the content was so compelling that it was, "not to be missed despite the effort involved," the resistance to that format, and perhaps some other arguments about the worth of the PRA, might fade.
 

Dean_Dolph

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Zilch!
What an amazing reaction Dean particularly from someone who doesn’t fly anything.
Vance, you aren’t going all aviation snobbery on me are you?!!

Folks, FYI, I seem to be able to pull Vance’s chain very easily without any intention. I just offer my opinions which I would hope I’m allowed to do. I find Vance to be a great guy and an entertaining and informative communicator. Setting under the old big oak tree (when it was still there!) at Bensen Days and hearing him and Carol DeGraw swap motorcycle racing stories is a great memory of mine.

What did the European gyroplanes do to cause such hostility Dean?
You are reading stuff into my post that isn’t there. There is no hostility and in fact I’d loved to own (even if I don’t fly!) a eurocopter type although I would lean toward the U.S. built SportCopter. I think the keyboard is getting in the way of our communication!

I love flying The Predator which is a scratch built and designed one of a kind gyroplane. It is not a Bensen Gyrocopter and yet I have always felt welcome at PRA events.
Yes, I can tell you do and you love to share the ride for which I applaud you. And I’ve said many, many times that you now own my favorite gyro! But, you are flying a home designed and built machine and not a factory assisted built gyro. So, in my small mind it ain’t the same as a eurocopter!

I love flying the Cavalon which is an experimental amateur built kit gyroplane. I suspect it fits into your poorly named category of gyroplanes.
It fits in the FAA category and that is all that should really matter but to me it isn’t in the same category as the Bensen, Dominator, SparrowHawk, Air Command & etc. or the plans built machines like the GyroBee and Hornet. I may be spitting hairs but…..
I love the PRA and I love gyroplanes Dean. I don’t understand your desire to not support what you feel is a particular segment of the gyroplane community.
Vance, I’ve been in the PRA continuously since 1967 so I guess you could say I love the organization. I didn’t say I didn’t support this segment, what I said was they probably didn’t need my or the PRA’s support. Trust me; any one that has an interest in experimental rotorcraft has my support. I have nothing to gain by not supporting them. I do believe that the eurocopter manufacturers/distributors are being a mite short sighted in not supporting the experimental amateur built machine thru the PRA in that until eurocopters attain LSA status, they are going to be in the minority and the experimental/AB builder is a potential market for them. I don’t think I have to tell you that.

What is the purpose of your position?

Do you feel not supporting a particular segment of the gyroplane community will grow the PRA?
My position is that the PRA was and is primarily for home built rotorcraft and I don’t agree with the FAA on its position that the eurocopter is home built. I think it is a real stretch to classify it as such. I feel the same about several of the kit built fixed wings. I do feel that the eurocopter has the potential to draw more people into the gyroplane environment but whether they become part of the community is yet to be seen. If they do then the eurocopter may benefit the PRA and amateur built gyros but that has yet to be demonstrated also. I think it is more likely that the eurocopter will end up classified as LSA and the PRA may get some fall out from those who have developed an interest before they suffered sticker shock.

Do you feel that this segment of the gyroplane community somehow detracts from the PRA members who do not have one of these gyroplanes?
Nope! However, I do have to admit I hold a lot more respect for those like Dick DeGraw, Chuck Beaty, Mark Givens, Ernie Boyette, Ron Herron, Ralph Taggart and the others like them than I do the eurocopter manufacturers.

What did this segment of the gyroplane community ever do to you?
Nothing, absolutely nothing. But, the question is what have they done for me? I’m at heart an experimental builder so I don’t expect anything from them.

AirGyro recently supported the Ken Brock Freedom Fly in put on by PRA chapter one by flying in three aircraft from Spanish Fork, Utah.
It appears to me that none of the other manufactures or distributors supported that event.
Vance, it is my opinion that Mike Burton (one of my favorite people) and AirGyro show up at KBF and other events not to provide support but to maybe expose their machines to some that aren’t aware of them and to do the same as you and I. And that is to interact with others who have a love for rotorcraft. The camaraderie is the major reason that most show up at the regional events with some of us having the secondary reason of seeing what the inventive minds have conjured up since the last event.

I will do my best to not impose on you Dean the next time I am at Mentone particularly if I bring one of the gyroplanes you dislike.
There you go again, I haven’t stated a dislike here ever for any gyro that I know of. I have expressed my preferences from time to time. I have found fault with specific gyro features with out naming the gyro but that is as far as I can remember going. So, I’m sure you can’t bring a gyro to Mentone, or where ever, that I’ll totally dislike.

Oh yeah, I envy your being in California (lived in the Lakewood area for 16 years) and especially near to Camarillo since my favorite aunt, who is 93, lives there.
 

Vance

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Agree! So, the PRA can quit putting articles about the eurocopters in the Ezine like was done last month. The PRA was established for and has been the benefactor for the home building experimental rotorcraft community and the eurocopter doesn't fit into that category regardless of qualifying as a 51% built machine. My opinion, obviously

It doesn't appear the eurocopter people need the PRA but they do take advantage of free promotion. Only a distributor can answer the question of whether they need the PRA. Since the eurocopter manufacturers/distributors do not (as far as I know) support the PRA, it is obvious that that the PRA can function without them although all support is welcome regardless of source.

I don’t feel I am reading anything into your post other than exactly what you wrote Dean.

You suggested that the content of the PRA E-zine should not include a particular sort of gyroplane because they don’t buy advertising and the Cavalon I am flying doesn't fit into the experimental amateur built category.

You are entitled to your opinion Dean.

I give up Dean; I don’t see how anything positive can come out of this interaction.

I am sorry I wrote anything in the first place.
 

Dean_Dolph

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Zilch!
…..PRA's content needs to be influenced by what its members want to read, not by an obsession with making sure nobody benefits without paying PRA.
You did say ‘what members want to read, didn’t you? I don’t have any idea of how the content of the Ezine is chosen but I suspect Lisa has to take all she can get from what ever source in order to put out an issue. It would be nice if she had to pick and choose but I doubt that is the case. So, Paul, have the members been polled on what they want to read? I realized that what I’ve just written is in conflict with what I said in my earlier post since Lisa probably didn’t have a choice on what she ran as the lead article.
…….That philosophy has readership of the e-zine down to a third or less the readership of the regional chapter newsletters.
Your, honor, this is supposition and should be thrown out! In the first place the Ezine goes to just members while the newsletters go to everyone that signs up for distribution. This indicates that the non PRA members getting info thru the PRA out number PRA members 2 to 1.

…….If PRA works to create a void between itself and the only companies big enough to afford advertising, it will be a hollow victory.
I just checked the latest issue of the Ezine and there are only two advertisers (other than the classifieds), Rotary Flight Dynamics and Bear Perkins, where are the big companies we are trying not to create the big void with? It has been stated that the big companies probably don’t need the PRA and I agreed with that. I also just stated that Lisa has to take the articles she receives and I understand that. The fact I pointed out that we didn’t need to provide free advertising seems to have struck a nerve when at this point my statement or the reaction to it isn’t relevant.
Like it or not, the eurogyros are the future of the sport. In a very few years, they're likely to be the only trainers available. Even Ron Menzie is now an Autogyro dealer.
My fear is that you are right! At least about the trainers and that ain’t good for the real sport of experimental/amateur built gyros. The eurocopter isn’t a sport, it is a way of life for those who have that type of money to spend; eurocopter today some other interest tomorrow. The gyro as Bensen visualized and created it is a dinosaur it would appear but I, for one, am not ready to see the experimental machine die.

If push comes to shove, I think Autogyro can get along fine without PRA.
I don’t think there is any push to it, the eurocopter people are, can and will get along without the PRA. The distributors in the U.S. are paying some attention but they’ve already demonstrate that they don’t need too.

…….. On the other hand, PRA needs desperately to stay in touch with the people choosing to buy and fly eurogyros. Any future converts to single-place homebuilt gyros are far more likely to come from the ranks of existing eurogyro pilots, or those who dream to fly one but can't afford it, than they to come from the fixed-wing ranks.
You really believe that?!! I don’t see any one trading down from a Lexus to Corolla which is the same scenario.
If PRA works to create a void between itself and the only companies big enough to afford advertising, it will be a hollow victory.
Any void that exists now or in the future is in the hands of the big companies. They want to promote their machines then the door is open if they want to pay for it. I don’t believe anyone has to be afraid of being crushed in the stampede. The big companies only respond to competition and right now they aren’t feeling it because apparently the factories are kept busy filling orders. If the time comes where orders slow down then they may see some need to use a small organization like the PRA. I have no idea how large the gyroplane market is but I suspect it isn’t large enough to support all the factories we’ve seen spring up in the past few years and we are going to see some fallout in the near future. In the mean time the ole PRA is going to keep chugging away and pecking at its problems until it is once again a major player and the experimental/amateur builder will continue to be supported.
Like it or not, the eurogyros are the future of the sport. In a very few years, they're likely to be the only trainers available. Even Ron Menzie is now an Autogyro dealer.
The eurocopter is an extension of the experimental rotorcraft and not the future; it is a class by itself. The trainer part, I’m afraid, is true and that is scary. There are only a handful of trainers and CFIs who, in my opinion, are setup to train and transition a pilot into an experimental machine. I don’t feel the eurocopter and/or the majority of CFIs that train in those machines have the background to do that. I have been told that it is a concern of the CFIs that have attended the CFI meetings in Mentone. We already have one CFI on record as saying he won’t train anyone that is not going to be flying a machine similar to his eurocopter.

I can see self training raising its ugly head once again in the experimental community.
 

Steve_UK

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Dean - why has the traditional Bensen type gyro sector shrunk.

I keep a close eye on what new gyros are being registered with the FAA - I rarely see anything from the old traditional sector being newly built and newly registered.

There is growth in gyros but it is coming from a new sector - these new machines are bringing new gyro pilots into the sport. They fly cross country and are raising the profile of gyros for sure.

Without them the gyro sector would just continue to wither away.

The gyro sector would be stronger together rather than fragmenting - if you scare the new guys away by dissing their machines and motivation then the future looks less rosey.
 

Brent Drake

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Steve, I believe you need to learn to fly a gyro.

Most of the younger generation here in America would much rather buy and fly rather than buy,build, then fly.
 

Brent Drake

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The airport campgrounds electrical upgrade is complete. The Good Sams camping club is telling us they will have a convention there soon.
This is very good news.
 
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