Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
Are you a lackey for Logan Harry?
If he made a faux-pas why does he need you to explain it?
Marty Weaver
- Thread starter CLS447
- Start date
Are you a lackey for Logan Harry?
If he made a faux-pas why does he need you to explain it?
Harry_S.
Gold Supporter
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 5,649
- Location
- Ocala, Florida
- Aircraft
- RAF2000
- Total Flight Time
- 2000+ hrs.
Nope, not a lackey for you either. Of course you know that.
Get a life why dontcha.
Get a life why dontcha.
Harry,
A slip of the tongue is one thing. People mis-speak all the time. I'm about as inarticulate as they come.
But to say that a horizontal stab will double the power off rate of descent when other reputable instructors test, and then approve of, those same stabilizers is another.
Did your gyro's power-off rate of descent double when you installed your stab Harry?
A slip of the tongue is one thing. People mis-speak all the time. I'm about as inarticulate as they come.
But to say that a horizontal stab will double the power off rate of descent when other reputable instructors test, and then approve of, those same stabilizers is another.
Did your gyro's power-off rate of descent double when you installed your stab Harry?
reelmule
Reelmule
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 388
- Location
- Cave Creek, AZ
- Aircraft
- Beech Baron C55; Piper PA 18 Super Cub; RAF 2000 gyroplane
- Total Flight Time
- 5,000+ hrs;
Now children....
I doubt that this Forum has negatively impacted the PRA anymore than other aviation forums have diminished the EAA, or USUA, or ASC, etc., etc.
The internet is full of forums, and believe me there are many that are far worse than this one.
Our poor safety record does far more damage than this Forum.
Another cause that I happen to think plays an even larger part in the PRA's decline is the magazine quality. It isn't that good and hasn't been for a while.
Last time I checked out the 'Members' issue of the magazine listing all of the PRA members and their locations, I didn't recognize most of the ones from Louisiana. They weren't members of our state chapter, they didn't come to our events and probably didn't own a gyro (or ever plan to). They probably just enjoyed getting the magazine.
Lots of people enjoy hobbies and sports from a distance. They'll never participate, but it interests them just the same. So imagine if their magazine quality starts to drop. What's the point of subscribing? I know that if I weren't an active member of the gyro community, I would've dumped my membership long ago.
You want more members? Spruce up the magazine so that it doesn't look like it came off a typewriter (I'm sure that there's some desktop publishing software that could be used to create a slick layout template). Have the editor lean on the chapter officers to submit stories about their events, chapter builds, member's projects, cool tools that they have made, etc. Load it up with stuff. Put the word out in different venues that the PRA has something to offer. Keep the website fresh and up-to-date. We have to reach outside of our little world.
If you want members, you have to offer them something for their dues.
Otherwise they'll find some other use for their time and money.
Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
reelmule, I come back here occasionally because it is like a free time warp trip where I get to marvel at the dichotomy that never ends in this group.
Unless I come back and check on how things are going every so often I might forget that there really are a few people that are this different in aviation.
Unless I come back and check on how things are going every so often I might forget that there really are a few people that are this different in aviation.
Last edited:
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 14,573
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
- Aircraft
- 2-place Air Command CLT SxS (project), & Twinstarr Autogyro
- Total Flight Time
- 750+hrs and climbing
Slip of the tongue or aerodynamics by a non-engineer?
Slip of the tongue or aerodynamics by a non-engineer?
Please correct me if I am wrong about this in any way. This knowledge comes to me second had so I can not personally vouch for the accuracy.
I was under the impression that this was no "slip of the tongue".
I am under the impression that the statement that Chuck is quoting of Jim Logans was an article published in the Ask First Society newsletter.
The Ask First Society promoted this definition of their operation:
Non-profit organization dedicated to training, standardization and safety in the rotorcraft industry. Includes pilot licensing regulations for helicopters and gyroplanes, directories of instructors and manufacturers, newsletter articles (PDF), FAQ, and membership information.
CFIs giving such advise in a training and safety publication should indeed be expected to account for his/her advise as that is the responsibility and position they hold.
No one is perfect and we all have much to learn.
I would fully expect Jim Logan to recant his statements as incorrect if he has now learned what he published is in error.
If what he published is not in error I think he has a duty considering the extraordinary statements he is claimed to have made to produce some data and scientific explanation to support his claims.
So far as I have seen, every time this is brought up Jim remains silent. I am at loss to understand why.
When I first got into gyroplanes I thought stability and HStabs were a 'preference', optional and not significant to the safe operation of gyroplanes by regular pilots as well as students. I know better now, I admit I was wrong as was the majority of people involved in our sport for the past 30 years.
We know better now. It is time to set things right and get on with bringing the gyroplane up to the potential it was created to fulfill by Juan de la Cierva.
.
Slip of the tongue or aerodynamics by a non-engineer?
Please correct me if I am wrong about this in any way. This knowledge comes to me second had so I can not personally vouch for the accuracy.
I was under the impression that this was no "slip of the tongue".
I am under the impression that the statement that Chuck is quoting of Jim Logans was an article published in the Ask First Society newsletter.
The Ask First Society promoted this definition of their operation:
Non-profit organization dedicated to training, standardization and safety in the rotorcraft industry. Includes pilot licensing regulations for helicopters and gyroplanes, directories of instructors and manufacturers, newsletter articles (PDF), FAQ, and membership information.
CFIs giving such advise in a training and safety publication should indeed be expected to account for his/her advise as that is the responsibility and position they hold.
No one is perfect and we all have much to learn.
I would fully expect Jim Logan to recant his statements as incorrect if he has now learned what he published is in error.
If what he published is not in error I think he has a duty considering the extraordinary statements he is claimed to have made to produce some data and scientific explanation to support his claims.
So far as I have seen, every time this is brought up Jim remains silent. I am at loss to understand why.
When I first got into gyroplanes I thought stability and HStabs were a 'preference', optional and not significant to the safe operation of gyroplanes by regular pilots as well as students. I know better now, I admit I was wrong as was the majority of people involved in our sport for the past 30 years.
We know better now. It is time to set things right and get on with bringing the gyroplane up to the potential it was created to fulfill by Juan de la Cierva.
.
Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
So far as I have seen, every time this is brought up Jim remains silent. I am at loss to understand why.
But he lets a few RAF supporters go to bat for him and make excuses like Harry just made.
But he lets a few RAF supporters go to bat for him and make excuses like Harry just made.
Heron
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 7,561
- Location
- Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
- Aircraft
- Golden Butterfly
- Total Flight Time
- 7.5 h.
It will take some time untill we all are in the same page but to say this Forum is impacting negatively on gyro enthusiasts is of base.
When we reach an agreement this group will be better geared and instruct on how gyros work and that information will save lives.
To each their own or like here in The Land of NO Sin . . .black bull . . .black bulls . . .
Jim: we all love you man but it is time for you to change your views and responses.
And if we are such a bad bunch of mean people . . .you would have left long ago!
You are still here so be one of us!
Heron
When we reach an agreement this group will be better geared and instruct on how gyros work and that information will save lives.
To each their own or like here in The Land of NO Sin . . .black bull . . .black bulls . . .
Jim: we all love you man but it is time for you to change your views and responses.
And if we are such a bad bunch of mean people . . .you would have left long ago!
You are still here so be one of us!
Heron
Harry_S.
Gold Supporter
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 5,649
- Location
- Ocala, Florida
- Aircraft
- RAF2000
- Total Flight Time
- 2000+ hrs.
I've not seen this statement that y'all talk about?!
No, Mike...I don't believe the stab had a detrimental affect to my descent except it didn't flare as crisp as without; seemed to "float" a bit.
I will say this tho...the initial installation I believe, tripled the rate of "ascent", as I have described before.
Cheers
The voodoo theories of gyroplane flight that so permeate the RAF cult originated with Bill Parsons.
Bill was quite a personable fellow, a fair blacksmith and as dense as they come. He lacked the mental capacity to understand that tilting a rotorhead produces a cyclical pitch variation of the rotorblades that causes the rotor disc to fly itself into alignment with the rotorhead axis.
Bill believed a tilt head gyro was a weight shifter like a trike or hang glider and that the rotor was a kind of parachute that kept a gyro from tumbling forward, something still heard today; “unload the rotor and all gyros will tumble out of the sky.”
For a good exposition of Bill’s voodoo theories, read Martin Weaver’s post #17 here:
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10739&page=2
Note the frequent use of the term WSC; meaning weight shift control.
Duane Hunn worked for Bill for several years and became the vehicle for infecting the RAF cult with Bill’s voodoo as well as the FAA through Martin Weaver.
These theories are now an article of faith amongst RAF cultists and their minds are closed to facts. Any deviation from the voodoo faith is regarded as heretical.
The departure of CFIs with no or flawed understanding of the principles of rotor flight is a blessing.
Bill was quite a personable fellow, a fair blacksmith and as dense as they come. He lacked the mental capacity to understand that tilting a rotorhead produces a cyclical pitch variation of the rotorblades that causes the rotor disc to fly itself into alignment with the rotorhead axis.
Bill believed a tilt head gyro was a weight shifter like a trike or hang glider and that the rotor was a kind of parachute that kept a gyro from tumbling forward, something still heard today; “unload the rotor and all gyros will tumble out of the sky.”
For a good exposition of Bill’s voodoo theories, read Martin Weaver’s post #17 here:
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10739&page=2
Note the frequent use of the term WSC; meaning weight shift control.
Duane Hunn worked for Bill for several years and became the vehicle for infecting the RAF cult with Bill’s voodoo as well as the FAA through Martin Weaver.
These theories are now an article of faith amongst RAF cultists and their minds are closed to facts. Any deviation from the voodoo faith is regarded as heretical.
The departure of CFIs with no or flawed understanding of the principles of rotor flight is a blessing.
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 14,573
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
- Aircraft
- 2-place Air Command CLT SxS (project), & Twinstarr Autogyro
- Total Flight Time
- 750+hrs and climbing
What a gyroplane CFI should know
What a gyroplane CFI should know
Article: What a gyroplane CFI should know by Chuck Beaty addresses this weight shift topic and a few other relevent issues.
http://gyrowiki.com/GyroWiki/What A Gyroplane CFI Should Know.aspx
.
What a gyroplane CFI should know
Article: What a gyroplane CFI should know by Chuck Beaty addresses this weight shift topic and a few other relevent issues.
http://gyrowiki.com/GyroWiki/What A Gyroplane CFI Should Know.aspx
.
Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
The departure of the company that was the glue that held this cult together is also a blessing.
Professor J. A. J. Bennett, chief engineer of Cierva Autogiro Co. Ltd. at the time, wrote a series of articles that were published on the Journal of the Royal Aeronautical Society in the early 1940s. In the following paragraphs extracted from one of those articles, Dr. Bennett discusses tilt head cyclic control.
The Language has evolved somewhat since then; rotaplane is the term used for gyroplane, reflex control means control by feathering bearings and some kind of swash plate.
I don’t expect a single RAF cultist will read this; to do so would be an act of heresy. Their minds are closed.
Direct Control
“Direct control about the rolling or pitching axis of a rotary aircraft having a single rotor is effected by tilting the lift vector laterally or longitudinally respectively, which, in a flapping system, results in a lateral or longitudinal inclination of the tip-path plane. Direct rolling control without side-slip may be obtained in a side-by-side twin rotor helicopter as, for example, the Focke helicopter (ref. 8) by differential non-periodic pitch change of the two rotors and direct yawing control by tilting the lift vector of one rotor forward with respect to the other.
“In his early machines Cierva used small fixed wings with ailerons for providing lateral control and a conventional rudder and elevator for yawing and longitudinal control. The aerodynamic force on surfaces, however, being proportional to the square of the relative air speed, the control of rotary aircraft by non-rotative surfaces is inadequate at the slow speeds at which such aircraft alone can fly, and as soon as a rotor system had been developed sufficiently free from secondary difficulties and defects, Cierva introduced the “tilting hub” method of direct control. Whilst this method was chosen for its mechanical simplicity as applied to the rotaplane, the fixed hub or “reflex” method is more appropriate to the helicopter, and, as has recently been demonstrated by Hafner (ref. 12), may even be advantageously used in the rotaplane.
“The tilting hub and reflex methods of control are fundamentally identical because whenever the control lever is moved in any given direction, the cyclic variation of blade incidence is the same in both. Inertia prevents a sudden displacement of the tip-path plane, so that when the hub is tilted the periodic displacement about the flapping hinge gives the same variation of blade angle with respect to the tip-path as is obtained about feathering control hinges in the reflex method. It is wrong to imagine that to tilt the hub the pilot must impose a load on the control column sufficient to displace the blades against their own inertia. The control mechanism is a relay, in which the moments are relatively small and when the pilot operates this relay he only causes the blades to feather cyclically. The result is a cyclic variation of lift in phase with the cyclic variation of blade incidence. The cyclic variation of lift displaces the blades from their normal path, but, owing to the natural frequency of motion about the flapping hinge being equal to the rotor’s angular speed, the displacement of the blade from its normal path occurs 90 deg. later in azimuth, thus effecting the required tilt of the tip-path plane, and therefore of the lift vector which is normal to this plane.”
The Language has evolved somewhat since then; rotaplane is the term used for gyroplane, reflex control means control by feathering bearings and some kind of swash plate.
I don’t expect a single RAF cultist will read this; to do so would be an act of heresy. Their minds are closed.
Direct Control
“Direct control about the rolling or pitching axis of a rotary aircraft having a single rotor is effected by tilting the lift vector laterally or longitudinally respectively, which, in a flapping system, results in a lateral or longitudinal inclination of the tip-path plane. Direct rolling control without side-slip may be obtained in a side-by-side twin rotor helicopter as, for example, the Focke helicopter (ref. 8) by differential non-periodic pitch change of the two rotors and direct yawing control by tilting the lift vector of one rotor forward with respect to the other.
“In his early machines Cierva used small fixed wings with ailerons for providing lateral control and a conventional rudder and elevator for yawing and longitudinal control. The aerodynamic force on surfaces, however, being proportional to the square of the relative air speed, the control of rotary aircraft by non-rotative surfaces is inadequate at the slow speeds at which such aircraft alone can fly, and as soon as a rotor system had been developed sufficiently free from secondary difficulties and defects, Cierva introduced the “tilting hub” method of direct control. Whilst this method was chosen for its mechanical simplicity as applied to the rotaplane, the fixed hub or “reflex” method is more appropriate to the helicopter, and, as has recently been demonstrated by Hafner (ref. 12), may even be advantageously used in the rotaplane.
“The tilting hub and reflex methods of control are fundamentally identical because whenever the control lever is moved in any given direction, the cyclic variation of blade incidence is the same in both. Inertia prevents a sudden displacement of the tip-path plane, so that when the hub is tilted the periodic displacement about the flapping hinge gives the same variation of blade angle with respect to the tip-path as is obtained about feathering control hinges in the reflex method. It is wrong to imagine that to tilt the hub the pilot must impose a load on the control column sufficient to displace the blades against their own inertia. The control mechanism is a relay, in which the moments are relatively small and when the pilot operates this relay he only causes the blades to feather cyclically. The result is a cyclic variation of lift in phase with the cyclic variation of blade incidence. The cyclic variation of lift displaces the blades from their normal path, but, owing to the natural frequency of motion about the flapping hinge being equal to the rotor’s angular speed, the displacement of the blade from its normal path occurs 90 deg. later in azimuth, thus effecting the required tilt of the tip-path plane, and therefore of the lift vector which is normal to this plane.”
Steve McGowan
Gold Member
Chuck,,,,,,
A Simple BlackSmith can and has created Beautiful Thing's...
He is Missed,,,
Can You "Say" or "THINK"........You Will Be ?
A Simple BlackSmith can and has created Beautiful Thing's...
He is Missed,,,
Can You "Say" or "THINK"........You Will Be ?
Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
jvitable
LC
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Messages
- 129
- Location
- manvel,texas
- Aircraft
- 46 taylorcraft/46 chief/dominator/Raf
- Total Flight Time
- 800-with 150 in gyros
Self Detruct--
Self Detruct--
Seems we are the only aircraft related Forum that is on the verge of destroying the very sport we represent and love--A shame!!! Everything has been said( and everyone now knows) about CLT etc'---however there are still members of this Forum that because of personal reasons or just plain meanest will only be happy when no one flys gyros or at least only fly the machine they demand!!!!---Again I do not blame these jerks( we have them in all parts of our society---I blame the bulk of our Forum members who say and do nothing to stop this desecration of the greatest sport I have experienced in my long lifetime--I don't tell the C's(Chucks' group) and others who to sue-what to fly-or when to play with themselves---they can not seem to return the favor--LC 281-489-2019---God-please let one of the jerks call!!!! I fly a RAF with a parham stab and a Dominator--best of both worlds!
Self Detruct--
Seems we are the only aircraft related Forum that is on the verge of destroying the very sport we represent and love--A shame!!! Everything has been said( and everyone now knows) about CLT etc'---however there are still members of this Forum that because of personal reasons or just plain meanest will only be happy when no one flys gyros or at least only fly the machine they demand!!!!---Again I do not blame these jerks( we have them in all parts of our society---I blame the bulk of our Forum members who say and do nothing to stop this desecration of the greatest sport I have experienced in my long lifetime--I don't tell the C's(Chucks' group) and others who to sue-what to fly-or when to play with themselves---they can not seem to return the favor--LC 281-489-2019---God-please let one of the jerks call!!!! I fly a RAF with a parham stab and a Dominator--best of both worlds!
Last edited:
chuter
Platinum Member
I don't see any of that in this thread.
The only points in this thread that I can make any connection to your quote above is that CFI's should not put out false, inaccurate information; is that your point? Are you saying people shouldn't say that?
Is that what you think is destroying our sport? That people are criticizing CFI's who put out false information?
Chuck_Ellsworth
Platinum Member
-God-please let one of the jerks call!!!!
Which jerks do you want to call you?
You have to be more specific.
Which jerks do you want to call you?
You have to be more specific.
