Magni M24 Orion or AutoGyro Calidus

aerobatic

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Hello, I'm very new to this forum.

I live in Quebec/Canada where the gyros are just beginning to be certified (1 MTOsport and 1 M16 Magni, Calidus and M24 Orion about to certified).

My flight experiences came from hang gliding, 3 axes ultraligths and for now I own an homebuilt biplane (Murphy Renegade II). I love the old look of a biplane for romantic reasons, but I missed the visibility of my first flights.

I'm seriously considering buying an enclosed gyrocopter and my heart balance between an M24 Orion or an AutoGyro Calidus.

Apart from the price difference, does anybody have a preference between those two models? About the safety of those models when flying with a passenger?
 

gyrodeputy

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Calidus

Calidus

I am a fan of the calidus for various reasons. These are my opinions and nothing more:

1. More comfortable. The Calidus gives the passenger and pilot some separation because they seat tandem (front to back). The M24 you sit side by side, but auctually the right seat seat is slightly behind and overlapping the left seat. Little too cozy for me.

2. Stream lines: The calidus presents a much smaller frontal area and slips through the air better.

3. The Auto-Gyro safety record is exceptional with over 1000 machines flying and no design contributed crashes! Magni is a great company too, but I just like Auto-gyro better.

Stay safe and good luck.
 

ms80831

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Hello, I'm very new to this forum.

I live in Quebec/Canada where the gyros are just beginning to be certified (1 MTOsport and 1 M16 Magni, Calidus and M24 Orion about to certified).

My flight experiences came from hang gliding, 3 axes ultraligths and for now I own an homebuilt biplane (Murphy Renegade II). I love the old look of a biplane for romantic reasons, but I missed the visibility of my first flights.

I'm seriously considering buying an enclosed gyrocopter and my heart balance between an M24 Orion or an AutoGyro Calidus.

Apart from the price difference, does anybody have a preference between those two models? About the safety of those models when flying with a passenger?
What is the process for registering factory built Gyros in Canada?
 

WillyRose

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Try before you buy

Try before you buy

Get a test ride in both before you consider buying either.
I fly an MTOsport, which is a brilliant machine. I'm 6'2" tall and, of course, with an open cockpit, have no trouble with headroom in the MTO. With the snug canopy of the Calidus, the seat has to be adjusted all the way back and raked so my shins clear the dashboard and my head clears the canopy. These adjustments compromise the space for the back seat pasenger and may even preclude using a stick in the back seat, if there's insufficient room for a stick to clear the raked front seat. I have no issue fitting in the M24, nor does my height compromise the flying experience for the right seat passenger.
I recommend flying in both before you consider buying also to compare the flying experience. We are frustrated with a small imbalance in our rotors which the factory seem unable to adjust out. I'm sure you will come across similar issues with Magni but, from what I've heard, they normally give a much smoother ride.
The take-off/landing and pre-rotation process differs in both machines. You start pre-rotating with the stick fully forward in both but, in the Magni, I believe you bring the stick back to complete pre-rotation. Take-off/landing is done at a slightly flatter attitude in the Magni.
We're considering adding an enclosed cockpit gyro to the fleet where I fly but, although we currently fly the MTO, the Calidus is far from a shoe-in. We're waiting to try both Calidus and M24 before we make a decision. I recommend you do likewise.
All the best,
Clive
 

Learjet

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Ditto all the good advice about flying in each. For the same reasons Heath prefers Auto-Gyro, I prefer Magni - which just goes to show that at the end of the day it's all about personal preferences!

I haven't flown the Calidus, and having only I done a couple of circuits in a friend's M24 my experience of it was that the M24 is a magnificent, comfortable and very stable gyro to fly (I own a Magni M16).
For my money I'd opt for the M24 over the Calidus for the simple fact of the seating configuration. Being the owner of a tandem gyro, there is no question that the side by side seating in the M24 is just so much more sociable and enjoyable for pilot & pax alike. In fact it's so much like sitting in a 2 place heli that I think the new generation of fully enclosed side by side gyros like the M24, Xenon etc are going to take a big bite out of the light sport helicopter market! Currently owning a tandem gyro, there's no question that my next gyro will be a side by side model.
 

steveb

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M24 or Calidus

M24 or Calidus

I'd echo the comments above - I've flown in both; they are both excellent aircraft, but they each inhabit slightly different niches in our corner of aviation.

I own and operate an MT-03 and an M16 in my school - the Calidus flies very much like an MT, the M24 flies very much like an M16. My personal preference is for the M24 as I like the side-by-side seating and think it will make it easier to teach than in a tandem.

My MT-03 is back on line this morning after a few weeks in the "naughty corner" following some pre-rotator problems - much as I love my M16 the MT-03 still puts a smile on my face! It's the same with the M24 vs the Calidus - which one you prefer will be very much a matter of personal preference.

Steve
 

aerobatic

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Registering Gyros in Canada

Registering Gyros in Canada

What is the process for registering factory built Gyros in Canada?
I don't really know since both Magni et AutoGyro resellers get to the paperworks themselves with Transport Canada. It looks like it was a big job for the first one of each model (like a 12/18 months process) translating all the manual maintenance, checklist, etc…). But the process now seems a lot faster for subsequent iteration of a an already approved model. They're selling the gyros ready to fly, with registration and logbook ready.

In Canada, flying a gyros needs a special permit with a theoritical course of 40 hours and a minimum of 45 hours of flight training (min 12h solo/min 12h dual commands). The permit allow to bring passengers, but for now, no one is offering life passenger insurance.
 

aerobatic

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And about safety?

And about safety?

Get a test ride in both before you consider buying either.
I'm waiting next spring to try all the different options since the Calidus and the Orion are not still here in Canada. I'm surely not blindly buying one of those expensive birds without doing a substantial test flight, even if it mean taking a few hours lessons in each model, before setting my mind on a particular one.

I understand that between a Calidus and an Orion, the look and comfort could be a matter of taste, but what about safety?

Both machines are made by serious companies with good reputation. But, I'm still trying to figure some arguments about the weight/solidity of the whole gyros and rotor issues from each option.

Do you feel safer with a heavier gyro made of chromoli steel even if it's imply a 914 instead of a 912 or do you prefer a lighter stainless steel plane?

Is it true that a heavier composite rotor is a better choice than a lighter extruded aluminum one?

Or, is it still a matter of taste between a plane more stable because of it's mass than a more reactive one that could put you in trouble if you're not careful enough with the commands?

I want to be able to bring total novices in a dual command gyro without being glued to the stick and pedals just in case my passenger hit something by mistake... I've enjoyed many hours of recreational flights as an ultralight instructor, giving test rides to people who never flown before without any problems. Is this still possible in a gyro?
 

PTKay

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Have you ever considered Xenon?

Compared with both, mentioned by you
it is much roomier, easier to handle and powerful.

I have no idea about it's legal situation in Canada,
but check with them:

http://www.celieraviation.eu/

Maybe the others have lots of open machines sold,
but their experience in enclosed gyros is limited and
they sold only few of them until now.

In the meantime Xenon sold over 120 enclosed machines
with excellent safety record.
 
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aerobatic

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Hello PTKay,

Xenon gyros looks great, but they're not available (no distributors in Canada) or certified up here.

I would certainly add them in my prospects if they are, but I don't want to invest time and money in the registration process of a first Xenon in Canada.

And I want to be trained in the model I'm buying so, for now, I'm really only considering the AutoGyro and Magni models because those are the only one really available around here.

I'm looking for a full enclosed gyro because at my local airstrip (5 minutes driving), building a hangar cost around 100K$. If I can rent a small space in an already build one, an open cockpit tandem gyro may also be a more cost effective solution. So an MTOSport or an M16 Trainer is not out of question...
 

Learjet

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Both machines are made by serious companies with good reputation. But, I'm still trying to figure some arguments about the weight/solidity of the whole gyros and rotor issues from each option.

Do you feel safer with a heavier gyro made of chromoli steel even if it's imply a 914 instead of a 912 or do you prefer a lighter stainless steel plane?

Is it true that a heavier composite rotor is a better choice than a lighter extruded aluminum one?
I own a Magni so my comments are probably biased :) - but here's what I like about the Magni and which were definitely part of my buying consideration when I was shopping for a gyro:

4 things were safety critical for me - (1) peace-of-mind rotor system, (2) airframe integrity, (3) engine reliability (4) overall flying performance and pitch stability.

The magni rotor head system is uncomplicated and has a tried and tested safety record spanning more than 20 years and 600 gyros. Ditto the composite rotors, which apart from incidences of gel coat paint peeling (purely cosmetic - no structural issue) on some of the early models when flying in rain, this is no longer an issue and magni rotors remain among the best performing(and smoothest) rotors available. A big plus is that the magni composite rotors (and roto-head) don't have a 1500hr timex and don't have to be replaced like some of the alu ones (and the salesmen often neglect to mention that fact! :tape:) I also prefer the heavier composite rotors as they have more inertia and are less susceptible to rotor rpm decay - in fact the only time I look at my rotor rpm is during pre-rotation. The Magni's steel hub bar is far more robust than the flat aluminum hub-bar designs (which in my opinion are more prone to stress fatigue) Ditto the s/steel airframes compared to chromoli steel. I've never been a fan of ali or s/steel in high vibration applications as they have a finite stress cycle lifespan compared to steel. After all my blah blah - as the old saying goes, the most safety critical component in any gyro is still the the pink fleshy part at the controls:eek:
 

aerobatic

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C. Beaty

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It is the rotor system with it’s overbalanced (noseheavy) blades that causes the negative comments vis-a-vis handling and agility. The rotor is also the mechanism for the celebrated stability despite misaligned propeller thrust line.

I expect that all Magnis have about the same rotor system.
 

Learjet

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Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Beaty
Perhaps you’d like to read Birdy’s impressions of a Magni.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/sho...t=hard+mouthed

Wow! Those comments are quite negatives compare to the general ones I've saw until now.

Do you know if those comments apply on a MTOSport or on a M24 Orion?
I found the handling charactersistics of the M24 to be very similar to the M16. There is no question that the Magni controls are more heavily dampened and the gyro is definitely not as agile as many others. But in fairness, it never was designed as a 'turn on a dime" cattle rustling aircraft :) I guess the design compromise was one of stability over agility. Yesterday I flew a round trip of almost 300miles in my Magni M16 which included flying over mountains with a fair bit of turbulance (20 -30 mph winds). Thanks, but when crossing windy mountain ridges at 4,500ft I'll happily trade some agility for stability :)
 

C. Beaty

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As the Xenon shows, stability and agility aren’t mutually exclusive.

With correct propeller thrust line and properly sized and located horizontal stabilizer, there is no need for a rotor system that makes it handle like a dump truck.
 

PTKay

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As the Xenon shows, stability and agility aren’t mutually exclusive.

With correct propeller thrust line and properly sized and located horizontal stabilizer, there is no need for a rotor system that makes it handle like a dump truck.
Excellent point, Chuck.
 

Learjet

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s the Xenon shows, stability and agility aren’t mutually exclusive.

With correct propeller thrust line and properly sized and located horizontal stabilizer, there is no need for a rotor system that makes it handle like a dump truck.
Chuck,as I haven't flown the Xenon yet I can't comment on its performance - but it's interesting to note that the tail-boom has been lengthened on the latest Xenons, thus relocating the horizontal stab further aft. So perhaps it wasn't quite as properly located as you suggest... :rolleyes:

As for the Magni's so-called dumptruck performance, there certainly aren't too many gyros out there that can match the Magni's VNE or cruise speed, not to mention it's safety record. Whatever one's personal opinion of it's performance, there's no denying these fact that the "dumptruck" gyro models have gone a long way in countenancing the poor safety image, and dubious credibility of sport gyros left in the wake of decades of "more agile" gyro fatalities. :)
 
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C. Beaty

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It is human nature, David, to believe that our own children are smarter and better looking than out neighbors’ unruly brats. My guess is that you have a paternal interest in the belief that a Magni represents perfection.

A few gyro designers have rediscovered those things that Cierva had known in the 1930s and now, 80 years later, have learned to design agile and stable gyros without compromising handling qualities.

As to performance, the LittleWing holds most of the FAI records for gyros: Absolute altitude, top speed, time to climb and speed over various distances.

http://www.gyroplanepassion.com/LittleWing.html
 
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