Inquiring Mind
Active Member
100+ hours and 500+ landings.How many landings and hours do you have now IM in gyros?
100+ hours and 500+ landings.How many landings and hours do you have now IM in gyros?
100+ hours and 500+ landings.
My recollection is that a Cirrus SR20 has a stall speed of 57kts with flaps.
In my opinion the touchdown speed shown in the video for the Magni is much less than 57kts.
You are landing that M-24 like a Cirrus SR20 pilot: too fast at touchdown and too flat (NW touching with mains).
Ah, well, that's quite a bit of muscle memory by now. No wonder touching down at 0-10 mph feels uncomfortable to you. For me, the most fun phase of gyro flight is the landing, because of its ability to flare/touchdown at nearly 0 groundspeed. You've been missing out on that, whilst increasing your landing risk. Perhaps a couple of hours of crow-hops with the right instructor can be an awakening?100+ hours and 500+ landings.
I tried to point out in a most direct way how unrelated the video was to a Cirrus SR 20 pilot landing.It's Tedium Saturday Nite here, so, I'll play. <pause while I have a pint> Nowhere did I claim that he was landing his M-24 at or above 57 kts. What I wrote was:
I employed something called a "similie." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simile#note-1
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Are you often so tedious, or do you reserve such just for particular people? Notwithstanding that, the responses here agree that he lands too fast and too flat (and some observed NW firsts, as did I). That's all I admonished him about, so why did you insist on tone-deafness and make such an unhelpful and odd counterpoint? (That is a rhetorical question, not needing an answer.) I sincerely "don't get you."
That's what I was answering. In the comment below (quoted from above) I am talking about touch-down speed.I asked about touch-down speed - how low should it be. After touch-down I can stop the gyro completely right away by pulling stick back.
I walk about 3 knots, if you'd like numbers on it.For no wind conditions, try for a fast walk or less. With noticeable wind, try to do zero ground speed.
That's what I was answering. In the comment below (quoted from above) I am talking about touch-down speed.
I walk about 3 knots, if you'd like numbers on it.
You quoted SR20 landing speeds, though I did not. I thought my "too fast and too flat" Cirrus pilot (not the plane, the pilot) similie was spot on. I wonder if you even understood what I meant, and how.I tried to point out in a most direct way how unrelated the video was to a Cirrus SR 20 pilot landing.
So, he was not too fast...I suspect that Inquiring Mind is landing at less than ten knots....
So, he was too fast...I have long been a recurrent training enthusiast but perhaps do not push it enough. Since then I encountered a pilot who was landing fast and flat in his gyroplane having found that is “what works best for me”. This works until it doesn’t.
I am not Inquire Mind's flight instructor.You quoted SR20 landing speeds, though I did not. I thought my "too fast and too flat" Cirrus pilot (not the plane, the pilot) similie was spot on. I wonder if you even understood what I meant, and how.
So, he was not too fast...
So, he was too fast...
I shall distance myself from your internal contradiction on the matter, for it's not my problem. Cheers.
Flat landings with shallow low approach are a common challenge for new to gyroplane pilots.Interesting. The same week you posted about two different flat landing gyro pilots. That was the source of my reading confusion.
My instructor never taught "balancing on the mains" and we always took off with nearly full throttle, assuming the rrpm was above 180 or so (which it always was after a normal pre-rotation).I also noticed you took off flat with almost full throttle instead of balancing on the mains and slowly increasing the throttle until it lifts off. Did your instructor teach balancing on the mains?
Yep, that's about my case.I feel it grows out of a desire to “grease” a landing and is often the shortest path to consistently greasing the landings.
And this too...It is often in response to flaring too high and dropping it in a couple of times.
Thank you Jim.I don't mind replying to my own post. As I get older, I often talk to myself.
Using the above calculator, in addition to the scenario of doubling touchdown speed, also try a scenario where the touchdown speed is the same, but the weight is doubled. It will drive home the point that the increase of kinetic energy caused by an increase in speed is much worse than an increase of weight.
The moral is: Touch down as slow as possible; every time!
Jim
You are landing that M-24 like a Cirrus SR20 pilot: too fast at touchdown and too flat (NW touching with mains).
Low speed short ground rolls should be the goal, not emulating airplane landings.
0 feet long if you can... and of course 0 ground speed.
I watched it and subconsciously pushed myself back in the seat a bit...scary.
I am still a very very low hours autogyro pilot but my instructor would not have been happy with any of those landings.
With every gyro I have flown it is possible to touch down at essentially zero ground speed under most conditions.
If I could make a perfect gyro landing...the throttle would hit the idle stop, the ground speed would be zero, the stick would be at the aft stop, and the wheels would go "squeak" all at the same time.
From the kinetic energy standpoint alone, it's a really good idea to touch down as slowly as possible.
This needs to get corrected now or he may have a flip over waiting to happen. Not trying to pick on anyone but if I was the instructor I would not have signed him off for solo yet. 3 pointer landings are simply a no no in any aircraft except taildraggers.
I'm amazed that any gyro CFI would make such comments. The approaches seemed often sloppy, inconsistent, and unstabilised. The groundspeeds during the flare (if one could call them that) seemed >10-20 kts. But, to Vance, all the landings were of PTS quality. I just don't understand him in that regard, and I give up trying.The landings in the video appear smooth and consistent at less than ten knots of ground speed.
I don’t like to touch the nose wheel first in a gyroplane.
In my opinion all of the landings in the video are to FAA practical test standards for sport pilot, gyroplane.
B. TASK: NORMAL AND CROSSWIND APPROACH AND LANDING REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; Gyroplane Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to normal and crosswind approach and landing.
4. Establishes and maintains a stabilized approach at the recommended airspeed
7. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the flare and touchdown.
8. Touches down smoothly, at a reduced forward airspeed
Many thanks for sharing this very handy tool!Grove aircraft has a really neat Kinetic energy calculator that we can "mis-use" to give us an idea of the energy increase that occurs when we touch down just a little fast. https://groveaircraft.com/wbproducts.html
Change the number of wheels with brakes to 1. That way you will be able to see total kinetic energy. Enter your typical landing weight and some speed. For the sake of argument, enter 10 knots. Read the total energy. Double the speed to 20 knots. See what happens to the energy.
From the kinetic energy standpoint alone, it's a really good idea to touch down as slowly as possible.
Many thanks for sharing this very handy tool!
KE of a 1,320 lb. gyro at 10 kts is 5,843 ft/lbs.
However, at a fast walking speed of 3 kts, it is only 525 ft/lbs.