Magni M-24, practicing landings.

BEN S

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Sooo......now that we have a consensus among CFI video watchers agreeing this was unsafe, can we get some feedback from IM on what he plans to do to change this pattern before it becomes part of an accident event chain?

IM, I know your reading this...we care and we are trying to help you.

Some of us have balled up a machine, maybe more then once pushing the envelope, regular landings on a paved runway on relativly calm days should NOT be near the danger zone.
 

Mayfield

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Although Inquiring Mind (do you mind sharing your first name?) certainly didn't ask for the kibitzing we've provided, his videos are clear and sharp and, in my opinion, good tools.

I had not watched all 14 of the landings heretofore. After watching all of them I have more unsolicited comments.

Landing 1 and 2 were too fast and too flat and in my opinion did not meet the standard.

Landing 3 was better but still too flat.

Except for giving up and not continuing to hold it off, landings 4 through 14 were actually pretty nice.

I wish I had been in the cockpit with him for landings 4 through 13. I can hear myself saying "Your alignment looks good, rate of descent is good, your initial level off looks pretty good. Now hold it off. Set your landing pitch attitude and hold it. As we slow down, we need more back pressure to maintain the pitch attitude. Airspeed is decaying. Hold it off, hold it off, don't let it land. Hold it off....." At some point we would have had a squeak as the main gear tires touched.

Jim
 

Philbennett

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My instructor never taught "balancing on the mains" and we always took off with nearly full throttle, assuming the rrpm was above 180 or so (which it always was after a normal pre-rotation).
During stop and go landings, rrpm did often decay below 180 so, instead of re-engaging the pre-rotator, we'd just then increase throttle gradually till it got back up there (with stick fully back, ofc).
Phil Bennett is a big proponent of full-throttle takeoffs, I believe.

Thanks everyone for advise! I appreciate it and will be working on lowering the speed on touch-downs.
Hey I'm late to this but as I was mentioned I've taken a look at the thread and have this to offer.

Firstly don't work on lowering touch down speed. You'll just stare at instruments when you want to be heads out looking out of the cockpit. I have zero idea what speed I touchdown at. You fly a consistent approach at the appropriate speed for your aircraft, round out and just hold the aircraft off c.2ft off the ground and check the sink with ever increasing backstick. It will land when it can't fly anymore. You just need to hold it off more.

I sympathise however because of the straight keel of the Magni which does mean this flatness on landing is a thing as the process is more delicate than with a cranked keel aircraft. The key to this will be not to over think it, but start with consistent approaches as the video doesn't show they are. Height, speed, position...

On the point re: full throttle. I am a big believer of this because it gives a more consistent take off - because full throttle is an easy / consistent reference. You can't [or are less likely] to fall into a trap of not getting full throttle / power [which the detent on a 914 motor can snag] if you always know what full power feels like. The PoH numbers don't mean much unless you are on full throttle. It gives a better safety margin.

The only reason, ONLY reason, this became a point of debate was because in order to justify the process of an online training provider who felt the need to add all these addional steps so that the patter during wheel balance became more aligned to that for take offs and that just made things that were pretty simple clunky. Hey ho.
 

Tyger

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I am surprised you didn't take the time to mention that a bag of hammers cannot actually be dumb.
In the Army we always used to say "he's as sharp as a bag full of hammers", or "sharp as a bowling ball".
Speaking of hammers, we also used to say, "you might be an M1 tanker if you consider a ball-peen hammer a precision instrument".
😊
 

Vance

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On the point re: full throttle. I am a big believer of this because it gives a more consistent take off - because full throttle is an easy / consistent reference. You can't [or are less likely] to fall into a trap of not getting full throttle / power [which the detent on a 914 motor can snag] if you always know what full power feels like. The PoH numbers don't mean much unless you are on full throttle. It gives a better safety margin.

The only reason, ONLY reason, this became a point of debate was because in order to justify the process of an online training provider who felt the need to add all these addional steps so that the patter during wheel balance became more aligned to that for take offs and that just made things that were pretty simple clunky. Hey ho.
As I recall Michael Burton (Commercial Pilot Rotorcraft-Gyroplane and Rotorcraft-Gyroplane CFI) used this technique around 2004 at Spanish Fork, Utah and had several videos about it. I don’t know when he started using it.

I begin instructing less than full throttle on takeoff when I had a learner who was opening the throttle too quickly.

I found that advancing the throttle more gently helped him manage balancing on the mains and reduce his tendency to bounce off the tail wheel.

Now when I have a learner who has trouble balancing on the mains I suggest using less than full throttle during the initial takeoff roll.

2,300 engine rpm is the minimum or the takeoff is aborted in The Predator.

This was all well before I had any contact with an online gyroplane training provider.
 
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Mayfield

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Firstly don't work on lowering touch down speed. You'll just stare at instruments when you want to be heads out looking out of the cockpit. I have zero idea what speed I touchdown at. You fly a consistent approach at the appropriate speed for your aircraft, round out and just hold the aircraft off c.2ft off the ground and check the sink with ever increasing backstick. It will land when it can't fly anymore. You just need to hold it off more.
Hi Phil,

Except for the first sentence in the excerpt, I believe you are spot on with your recommendations above.

"Don't stare at the instruments and lose situational awareness."

I couldn't agree more!

However, words matter. I believe he should absolutely "work on lowering his touchdown speed."

In the landing flare we get velocity, directional and height clues which can only come from looking outside. As you so rightfully indicate, fixating on the instruments is very bad.

When we humans approach any task, we have a goal that mostly progresses from the general to the specific. "Let's land this thing safely." Landing safely means touching down at the desired point with the longitudinal axis of the aircraft aligned with the direction of travel, the vertical velocity as close to zero as possible, and the groundspeed as low as possible.

So yes, he should work on lowering his touchdown speed as well as doing all that other critical stuff you point out.

Respectfully,

Jim
 
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Philbennett

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Yeah of course you are right Jim I suppose the point being don't work on the touchdown speed, the touch down speed will reduce as a consequence of the other stuff...
 

Mayfield

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PhilBennett said: "You just need to hold it off more."

I absolutely agree. In landings 4-13 in the video, I believe the poster is doing a pretty good job except for touch down speed. If he takes your advice, articulated above, he will improve the safety, and elegance, of his landings.

Jim
 
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