Magni M-24, practicing landings.

Abid

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I think you may have picked up bad habits after training from your instructor in solo. May I suggest to go back to him and he can give a few pointers to correct the small mistakes and get correct concepts back into mind. I have seen this a lot. Instructors teach correctly and then later during solo people come up with their own ideas because they seem to be working for them but its mostly luck. One bad day or thing and those ideas can result in damage to the aircraft or worse. 100 to 150 hours is usually just about right to go get checked out again to correct any bad habits with your instructor. Fly safe.
 

Andino

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My recollection is that a Cirrus SR20 has a stall speed of 57kts with flaps.

In my opinion the touchdown speed shown in the video for the Magni is much less than 57kts.

It's Tedium Saturday Nite here, so, I'll play. <pause while I have a pint> Nowhere did I claim that he was landing his M-24 at or above 57 kts. What I wrote was:
You are landing that M-24 like a Cirrus SR20 pilot: too fast at touchdown and too flat (NW touching with mains).

I employed something called a "similie." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simile#note-1

similie.png

Are you often so tedious, or do you reserve such just for particular people? Notwithstanding that, the responses here agree that he lands too fast and too flat (and some observed NW firsts, as did I). That's all I admonished him about, so why did you insist on tone-deafness and make such an unhelpful and odd counterpoint? (That is a rhetorical question, not needing an answer.) I sincerely "don't get you."
 

Andino

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100+ hours and 500+ landings.
Ah, well, that's quite a bit of muscle memory by now. No wonder touching down at 0-10 mph feels uncomfortable to you. For me, the most fun phase of gyro flight is the landing, because of its ability to flare/touchdown at nearly 0 groundspeed. You've been missing out on that, whilst increasing your landing risk. Perhaps a couple of hours of crow-hops with the right instructor can be an awakening?
 

Vance

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It's Tedium Saturday Nite here, so, I'll play. <pause while I have a pint> Nowhere did I claim that he was landing his M-24 at or above 57 kts. What I wrote was:


I employed something called a "similie." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simile#note-1

View attachment 1155529

Are you often so tedious, or do you reserve such just for particular people? Notwithstanding that, the responses here agree that he lands too fast and too flat (and some observed NW firsts, as did I). That's all I admonished him about, so why did you insist on tone-deafness and make such an unhelpful and odd counterpoint? (That is a rhetorical question, not needing an answer.) I sincerely "don't get you."
I tried to point out in a most direct way how unrelated the video was to a Cirrus SR 20 pilot landing.

I suspect that Inquiring Mind is landing at less than ten knots although without reference to an airspeed indicator it is hard to be precise.

There are people on the Rotary Wing Forum that are trying to learn about flying gyroplanes and in my opinion your simile was unhelpful.

I shared how the landings were to FAA Sport Pilot, Gyroplane practical test standards.

I did not write the post for you Adino and am not surprised you apparently didn’t understand any of it.
 

WaspAir

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I asked about touch-down speed - how low should it be. After touch-down I can stop the gyro completely right away by pulling stick back.
That's what I was answering. In the comment below (quoted from above) I am talking about touch-down speed.
For no wind conditions, try for a fast walk or less. With noticeable wind, try to do zero ground speed.
I walk about 3 knots, if you'd like numbers on it.
 
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Resasi

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Good attitude.

Though they may have seemed like good landings, in fact they weren't ideal.

If that excellent advice has saved you from digging in a nose wheel and tumbling over during a too fast forced landing on rough ground... it might save your life.
 

Andino

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I tried to point out in a most direct way how unrelated the video was to a Cirrus SR 20 pilot landing.
You quoted SR20 landing speeds, though I did not. I thought my "too fast and too flat" Cirrus pilot (not the plane, the pilot) similie was spot on. I wonder if you even understood what I meant, and how.

I suspect that Inquiring Mind is landing at less than ten knots....
So, he was not too fast...

I have long been a recurrent training enthusiast but perhaps do not push it enough. Since then I encountered a pilot who was landing fast and flat in his gyroplane having found that is “what works best for me”. This works until it doesn’t.
So, he was too fast...

I shall distance myself from your internal contradiction on the matter, for it's not my problem. Cheers.
 

Vance

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You quoted SR20 landing speeds, though I did not. I thought my "too fast and too flat" Cirrus pilot (not the plane, the pilot) similie was spot on. I wonder if you even understood what I meant, and how.


So, he was not too fast...


So, he was too fast...

I shall distance myself from your internal contradiction on the matter, for it's not my problem. Cheers.
I am not Inquire Mind's flight instructor.

I have already written that without seeing the airspeed indicator and knowing the wind conditions I don't know how fast he was landing and that it appeared he was landing at less than ten knots.

I was writing about a client who stopped by since my return for a flight review.

I had a clear picture of his flight path and air speeds.

He would come in at the correct approach speed and begin his flare very close to the ground; holding it off and landing with little flare.

I council against this because a gusting cross wind can make this not work and beginning the round out 15 to 20 feet above the ground gives a better margin of safety and is what is written in the Cavalon Pilots Operating Handbook.

He perfectly exemplified what the speaker at NAFI had been talking about again showing that learning to be a better flight instructor is an ongoing effort and NAFI is a part of that for me.

I felt I had addressed his tendency to not flare too low specifically and it appears I had failed.

He was convinced that he had developed a superior landing procedure and was reluctant to change how he was landing his Cavalon.

Because it had been almost two years since I signed him off his landing procedure had become engrained.
 
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Andino

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Interesting. The same week you posted about two different flat landing gyro pilots. That was the source of my reading confusion.
 

Hydro Pilot

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I have a sticker on my dashboard that says "Back Stick" I look at that as a reminder for every landing to get that stick back to keep the nose up and reduce my forward speed to 0. It's very much like landing a tailwheel aircraft and as others have said you will try not to land just hold it off the runway by bringing that stick back slowly and it settles on its own. I also noticed you took off flat with almost full throttle instead of balancing on the mains and slowly increasing the throttle until it lifts off. Did your instructor teach balancing on the mains?
 

Vance

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Interesting. The same week you posted about two different flat landing gyro pilots. That was the source of my reading confusion.
Flat landings with shallow low approach are a common challenge for new to gyroplane pilots.

I feel it grows out of a desire to “grease” a landing and is often the shortest path to consistently greasing the landings.

It is often in response to flaring too high and dropping it in a couple of times.

With a steady wind straight down the runway; a shallow, low approach works.

It can be problematic with a gusting cross wind.

It is my observation that a shallow, low approach seldom causes an accident.

I prefer to teach landings as they are described in the Pilot’s Operating Handbook for the specific make and model they are or will be flying.

In my opinion the landings in the video are to practical test standards for normal landings.
 

Tyger

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I also noticed you took off flat with almost full throttle instead of balancing on the mains and slowly increasing the throttle until it lifts off. Did your instructor teach balancing on the mains?
My instructor never taught "balancing on the mains" and we always took off with nearly full throttle, assuming the rrpm was above 180 or so (which it always was after a normal pre-rotation).
During stop and go landings, rrpm did often decay below 180 so, instead of re-engaging the pre-rotator, we'd just then increase throttle gradually till it got back up there (with stick fully back, ofc).
Phil Bennett is a big proponent of full-throttle takeoffs, I believe.
 

Vance

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I don't mind replying to my own post. As I get older, I often talk to myself.

Using the above calculator, in addition to the scenario of doubling touchdown speed, also try a scenario where the touchdown speed is the same, but the weight is doubled. It will drive home the point that the increase of kinetic energy caused by an increase in speed is much worse than an increase of weight.

The moral is: Touch down as slow as possible; every time!

Jim
Thank you Jim.

I often explain to my learners that the stored kinetic energy goes up by the square of the increase in the speed.

Double the speed and there is four times the energy stored.

I am comfortable with that concept but some of my clients are not.

Misusing the calculator is another way to demonstrating this simple concept.

I will add the calculator to my tools for instruction.
 

Andino

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There's this:

You are landing that M-24 like a Cirrus SR20 pilot: too fast at touchdown and too flat (NW touching with mains).
Low speed short ground rolls should be the goal, not emulating airplane landings.
0 feet long if you can... and of course 0 ground speed.
I watched it and subconsciously pushed myself back in the seat a bit...scary.
I am still a very very low hours autogyro pilot but my instructor would not have been happy with any of those landings.
With every gyro I have flown it is possible to touch down at essentially zero ground speed under most conditions.

If I could make a perfect gyro landing...the throttle would hit the idle stop, the ground speed would be zero, the stick would be at the aft stop, and the wheels would go "squeak" all at the same time.

From the kinetic energy standpoint alone, it's a really good idea to touch down as slowly as possible.
This needs to get corrected now or he may have a flip over waiting to happen. Not trying to pick on anyone but if I was the instructor I would not have signed him off for solo yet. 3 pointer landings are simply a no no in any aircraft except taildraggers.

...and then there's this:

The landings in the video appear smooth and consistent at less than ten knots of ground speed.

I don’t like to touch the nose wheel first in a gyroplane.

In my opinion all of the landings in the video are to FAA practical test standards for sport pilot, gyroplane.


B. TASK: NORMAL AND CROSSWIND APPROACH AND LANDING REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; Gyroplane Flight Manual.

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to normal and crosswind approach and landing.

4. Establishes and maintains a stabilized approach at the recommended airspeed

7. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the flare and touchdown.

8. Touches down smoothly, at a reduced forward airspeed
I'm amazed that any gyro CFI would make such comments. The approaches seemed often sloppy, inconsistent, and unstabilised. The groundspeeds during the flare (if one could call them that) seemed >10-20 kts. But, to Vance, all the landings were of PTS quality. I just don't understand him in that regard, and I give up trying.
 

Andino

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Grove aircraft has a really neat Kinetic energy calculator that we can "mis-use" to give us an idea of the energy increase that occurs when we touch down just a little fast. https://groveaircraft.com/wbproducts.html

Change the number of wheels with brakes to 1. That way you will be able to see total kinetic energy. Enter your typical landing weight and some speed. For the sake of argument, enter 10 knots. Read the total energy. Double the speed to 20 knots. See what happens to the energy.

From the kinetic energy standpoint alone, it's a really good idea to touch down as slowly as possible.
Many thanks for sharing this very handy tool!

KE of a 1,320 lb. gyro at 10 kts is 5,843 ft-lbs.
However, at a fast walking speed of 3 kts, it is only 525 ft-lbs.
 
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XXavier

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Many thanks for sharing this very handy tool!

KE of a 1,320 lb. gyro at 10 kts is 5,843 ft/lbs.
However, at a fast walking speed of 3 kts, it is only 525 ft/lbs.

Your numbers are of course correct, but the notation is misleading. It should be written 5,843 ft·lb and 525 ft·lb...
 
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