Magni and RAF comparison

bpearson

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
946
Location
Nottingham
Today, after flying our machines (mine a VPM and friends RAF) we decided to swap and go up with an instructor. Ronnie may wish to comment on my VPM but heres my thoughts on the RAF.

Although we flew with the doors off the cabin was great and although I prefer an open machine, in Winter this would be ideal. The climb rate was not as good as I expected but it was a strange day weather wise. No stick shake at all. No real cabin shake either, very smooth. Rotor revs were less 2 up in the RAF than flying the VPM solo.

Flying it : Wow. The workload was amazing straight and level. It seemed happy at 50mph although you had to work to maintain it. Constant corrections were required with stick and rudder and it felt ok if you kept on top of it but I could immagine it getting hairy if you didn't. Not as bad though as I had heard. Left the landing to the instructor and his workload seemed heavy in the crosswind.

It will be interesting when we get the go ahead in the UK to fit the Stab and see how it flies then. Especially for a fresh RAFer like me who hasn't developed the feel that is needed and comes I am told with time at the controls. As it is now I think that the work needed to fly is too great especially when it is capable of long cross countries.

The biggest negative for me is that there is no way I would feel comfortable 'manoevreing it' like you can in complete comfort in the Magni. Just wouldn't go there ! Then again my machine is sat on the ground when the temps drop and the RAF pilot turns on the heater.

After three circuits Ronnie was landing my gyro perfectly. I would guess it would take many tens of hours for me to do the same in his aircraft.

Thanks Ronnie and Dave. Brian.
 

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
Magni and RAF comparison
Chalk n cheese.
Yes, you HAVE to fly a RAF if its still in stock form, but at least you CAN fly it.

I wasnt at all impressed with the Magni.
They cirtanely achived stability with this machine. Iv watched them fly on vid clips, and i wasnt sure if it was the pilot or the machine that was makeing it look constipated.
I had the oppertunity to fly a magni at the oz nats, and to say its hardmouthed is an understatement.
Its good points;
Good prespinner
Streight as an arrow during the TO roll
Excellent pitch trimm control setup.
Streight as an arrow once trimmed.
Im sorry, but thats all i can think of on the positive side.

Negatives;
Worse than a RAF to get into. [ nearly cut me nose off on the windscreen]
Throttle scope too short/ touchy. [Specialy wen your tryn to hold the breaks on at the same time.]
Certainly not the most efficiant use of 115hp.
Very heavy stick, in pitch and roll.
Rudder isnt as effective as one would think, given its size, wen tryn a side
slip.
No doors or roof.

If anyone's interested in my oppinion.......
Its the best way of engineering out the inherantly good points of gyros.
Gyros are the best machine's for simplicity and controlability. Why would you want to engineer out its strongest points?
After i trimmed out and let the stick go it just kept on go'n, just like a cessna would, but a [good 2nd hand]cessna dont cost that much, gose twice as fast on the same fuel burn rate, has more seats and carrieing capacity, and has a roof n doors. I havnt had much time on the yoke of a cessna, but iv had enuff to know its lighter to control than the magni. Wen i tryed to throw it round, it resisted with vigore. Iv ridn old race horses with lighter mouths than a magni, and thats sayn sumthn. The extra alt you need because of the heavieness of the conrtols is rediculous, its supposed to be a gyro. I tryed one of me regular moves iv dun in every gyro iv flown, and almost drove it nose first into the deck.
Itd be the most UNmanouverable flyn machines iv flown, and its a gyro.

Why would you want a Magni over a cessna? buggered if i know.

This is only the oppinion of a SCG, so dont take it to hart. Who knows, there maybe sum people who want to fly sumthn that dont want to do anythn but S/L.
 

barnstorm2

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
14,572
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Aircraft
2-place Air Command CLT SxS (project), & Twinstarr Autogyro
Total Flight Time
750+hrs and climbing
Humm....

Maybe there is a knack to it.

Greg Gremminger tears up the sky with his.

.
 

Harry_S.

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
5,649
Location
Ocala, Florida
Aircraft
RAF2000
Total Flight Time
2000+ hrs.
Da same ole story...time in grade (machine)...it's what you gets used to.

I don't like motorin' my neighbor's golf cart cause it don't handle like mine?! No big deal.

I like flyin' the machine and don't like a machine that flies itself. I'm funny that way.:wacko:


Cheers :)
 

C. Beaty

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
9,990
Location
Florida
Birdy, I hope that some day you get to fly a gyro that has all the following attributes:

(1) Light stick
(2) Top of the line propeller thrust to weight ratio.
(3) Is both stable and agile; attributes which are not mutually exclusive.

But then we’ve been through all this before, haven’t we?
 

bpearson

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
946
Location
Nottingham
Magni and RAF comparison

Itd be the most UNmanouverable flyn machines iv flown, and its a gyro.

You sure it was a Magni. I've seen top Magni pilots throw them around and likewise with RAF's. Chalk and cheese sums it up well.

After my Benson I did find the stick heavy but just like a clutch in a car you don't notice it so much after a while.

I wasn't having a go at RAF's or their pilots.Thought the cabin was nice. Don't see the enjoyment in having to work at S/L though. But if thats what floats yer boat, thats great. Interesting what it will be like with the stab fitted.
 

gyromike

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
3,741
Location
Abbeville, Louisiana
Aircraft
Bensen B8MG
Magni and RAF comparison
Very heavy stick, in pitch and roll.


I seem to recall Greg Gremminger saying that the Magni had friction built into the controls to make it less likely that the pilot would overcontrol the machine.

I don't know if it's adjustable, but maybe it was set too tight?
 

Ronnie L

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Messages
131
Location
Rossendale, Lancashire,England
Aircraft
RAF2000
Total Flight Time
450hrs
Flying a Magni, is something I have wanted to do for some time. Yesterday, Brian offered a trip in his machine, with our instructor David.

As I strapped in the first impression was of being very exposed. This particular M16 has a very low screen, the sides and instrument panel seemed at waist height. I have never been in something without some kind of enclosure, it would take some time to get accustomed to this.

The take off and climb were very easy. There was slight stick shake but it wasn't at all harsh. This M16 is fitted with a Jos Schepers Subaru EA 81 conversion, which performs really well.

The stabillity is unbelievable, it just sits there. You upset it in pitch, it just comes back, but the stick forces in pitch and roll are a lot higher than my RAF2000. In yaw after a bootful of rudder, it doesn't return to straight and has to be brought back with the pedals.

I couldn't believe how easy it was to land, I'm sure it could do it by itself.

We have a section T compliant H Stab for the RAF ready to go, just waiting for a test permit.

It will be good when you can try the RAF with a Stab.

Thanks to Brian and David.

Ronnie L
RAF2000
G-BYIN
 

Harry_S.

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
5,649
Location
Ocala, Florida
Aircraft
RAF2000
Total Flight Time
2000+ hrs.
I wasn't having a go at RAF's or their pilots.Thought the cabin was nice. Don't see the enjoyment in having to work at S/L though. But if thats what floats yer boat, thats great. Interesting what it will be like with the stab fitted.



Brian;

Dependent on how effective the stab is, there will be "buku" difference in the handling qualities of the RAF, especially in windy conditions.

Again, time in the machine, means a lot, especially in pilot performance, IMO.


Cheers :)
 

Aussie_Paul

A reforming stirrer!!!!!
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
4,441
Location
Ballarat Australia
Aircraft
None at the moment.
Total Flight Time
Since 1982 Gyro 5000+ mostly instructing, and approx. 200 fixed wing in the late 1960s.
It takes some time to adjust to the different requirements of throwing a lead sled around. Certainly a different technique required. I get into a nimble light weight gyro and I find it different to what I am now used to, "And loving it" :):)

I have enjoyed the different facets and the changing requirements of my gyros over the years. What I love flying now is certainly different to what I loved flying back in 1982, or back in 1961 when flying a gyroglider was the ultimate. :):)

As long as a particular gyro is a safely set up stable machine someone will get enjoyment from it wether it be a 500 lb or 1300 lb MTOW gyroplane.

Aussie Paul. :)
 

bpearson

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
946
Location
Nottingham
I enjoyed flying my Benson Paul. And still think a lightweight single seater is the best way to fly. But, although my Benson clone needed flying all the time it was absolutely nothing like the RAF. I cannot understand anyone who would want to have to work at S/L if a fix was available to lighten the load.

I remember driving an old Land Rover that was so worn out that to keep it going straight down the road was hard work as well. My girlfriend at the time used to tow horseboxes up and down the country with it and didn't notice it !

I'm NOT having a dig at the RAF, thought it was great and might get one. But, it will be fitted with a stab. I think Aussie Paul may have the solution with his new machine.
 

bones

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2004
Messages
1,278
Location
Chtrs Twrs Australia
Aircraft
a/c
Total Flight Time
cant remember, didnt have log books before, but since over 3000
Birdy, I hope that some day you get to fly a gyro that has all the following attributes:

(1) Light stick
(2) Top of the line propeller thrust to weight ratio.
(3) Is both stable and agile; attributes which are not mutually exclusive.

But then we’ve been through all this before, haven’t we?

He will have the chance to fly another one, as he already flew an Owen Dull one at the Nats, but as soon as my machine turns he and any one is well to go for a lap in it ..Also it is all you descibed
 

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
Greg Gremminger tears up the sky with his.
I think, Tim, theres tearing up the sky, and theres tearing up the sky. Could you point me to sum footage of Greg tearing it up please? [ id like to see it.]

Da same ole story...time in grade (machine)...it's what you gets used to.
With respect Harry, you only need time in type to get used to a machine's limitations, not its abitities.

Birdy, I hope that some day you get to fly a gyro that has all the following attributes:
(1) Light stick
(2) Top of the line propeller thrust to weight ratio.
(3) Is both stable and agile; attributes which are not mutually exclusive.

Iv found one Chuck, its made here in Oz, and im go'n to get one.
It is as stable as a magni, has less HP than the magni, NEEDS less HP than a magni, and runs rings round a magni in every aspect.
Like i said, magni has engineered the gyro out of gyros.

You sure it was a Magni.
Yup.

I seem to recall Greg Gremminger saying that the Magni had friction built into the controls to make it less likely that the pilot would overcontrol the machine.
It wasnt the friction thing Mike, [iv heard they have it too] coz there was no friction wen i was on the ground. Most of the heavyness is caused by the leavergae ratio between the stick and torque tube. But thats not all thats constraining it.

It takes some time to adjust to the different requirements of throwing a lead sled around.
I wouldnt have called the magni a lead slead PB. But yes, you cant expect a heay machine to respond at the same rate as a light one. My wasa is heavier n the magni, but it runs rings round it in manoverability, with much less stick pressure needed. I can do in the wasa with just a one finger and thumb grip moves at twice the rate than the magni with a strangle grip, and a heavy arm. Its phisicaly impossable to throw it round.......... tight.

As long as a particular gyro is a safely set up stable machine someone will get enjoyment from it wether it be a 500 lb or 1300 lb MTOW gyroplane.
Spoton PB, just not me. If i wanted to fly the magni way, id get a cessna.
 

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
I was go'n to mention yours too Bones, but i havnt flown it yet. ;)
 

C. Beaty

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
9,990
Location
Florida
A general rule of thumb is: heavy rotor = heavy stick.

When the stick is moved, there is some lag until the rotor catches up. The rotor is always trying to pull the stick into alignment with its tip plane axis and the greater the lag, the greater the stick pressure.

Rotor lag is determined by the ratio of rotor aerodynamic force to rotor inertia.

The distance between teeter bolt and rotorhead pitch/roll pivots also plays a major role. The greater the distance, the higher will be the stick force for a given input.

None of which has much to do with stability.
 

ckurz7000

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
3,444
Location
Vienna
Aircraft
ArrowCopter
Birdy, seems what you want to fly is a MT-03. I found it way agile yet stable and easy to fly.

-- Chris.
 

Harry_S.

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
5,649
Location
Ocala, Florida
Aircraft
RAF2000
Total Flight Time
2000+ hrs.
Birdy;

With respect Harry, you only need time in type to get used to a machine's limitations, not its abitities.



Umm, yeah, I'll go along with that. but

When you're about 80 years of age I don't think you'll be too much concerned about a machines limitations...at least I'm not concerned about it. ;)


Cheers :)
 

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
A general rule of thumb is: heavy rotor = heavy stick
I know that Chuck.
BTW, the wasa has 30' extru aloy blades, with a tall block.
IOW, it wasnt the blades.

Birdy, seems what you want to fly is a MT-03.
It may be better Chris, but its definatly not wot i want.

Anyone able to point me to sum 'magni tearn it up' footage.......... please.
 

Chopper Reid

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
1,326
Location
Pooncarie. Australia
Aircraft
Rosco built, Suby 2.2, pod
Total Flight Time
4600 gyro hours
You sure it was a Magni. I've seen top Magni pilots throw them around and likewise with RAF's. Chalk and cheese sums it up well.
.



They may well have been "top" pilots but after seeing two of Australias best fly a demo at the Nationals here in Australia over Easter, I have no doubt that they are without peer anywhere in the world.


The Magni, MT etc are very long, something akin to a arrow so it makes sense that its not going to like being chucked around the sky, they are built to fly S&L safely and thats about it, full stop. They are professionally finished and appeal to those who like the shiny show room glitter .

 

C. Beaty

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
9,990
Location
Florida
Another possibility is overbalanced rotorblades. When the CG of a torsionally flexible rotorblade is well forward of its aerodynamic center, a strong stabilizing effect is produced.

An upward gust twists the blade nosedown, heading it into the relative wind. I suspect that’s the way Wing Cmdr. Wallis gets some of his stability; his plywood blades with external nose weights make overbalancing simple.

Overbalancing also causes a reduction of control responsiveness and a heavy stick.

I have no knowledge of Magni blade construction so this is no more than general information.

Tervamaki sent me a section of his rotorblades a number of years ago; it had a glass spar with lead bar at the nose for chordwise balance but Magni blades could be entirely different.

With extruded blades, Birdy, overbalance is the least of your worries. It’s not possible to get even correct ¼ chord balance without a ton of brass at the leading edge. But I imagine they’re stiff enough in torsion so you don’t get the squirrely behavior tailheavy Skywheels exhibit on heavy machines.
 
Top