Low Cost machining - The saga drones on

DaveAndPete

Newbie
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
24
Location
Show Low, AZ
Hi All,

Well, what started out to be a brilliant (my thinking - DUH, what WAS I thinking?) idea, yesterday had to be down graded to just an idea. Now, however, it has been downgraded even further to a BAD idea.

A good friend and neighbor is a retired DA from California. My wife and she have been great friends for 40+ years and I deeply respect this woman's legal opinions.

She says it would be foolish to machine flying-parts without the umbrella protection of a Corporation. I said I was comfortable with guys from here accepting the risk but she points out that it might not be the "guy" who launches litigation for a part failure. It might be family of the now deceased "guy" and they want compensation. Even if it was not my machining that caused the crash, it could cost thousands of dollars just to defend my position.

On checking with a local Attorney it will cost $800 to $1000 to set up a LLC, so that is not going to happen.

Adding another level to the saga, I cannot begin to imagine how bad I would feel if someone was hurt or killed because a part I machined had failed in flight. Whether it was as a result of my machining or not, I would never be sure I had done it perfectly. Stuff breaks as Rolls Royce are currently experiencing with the A380 planes.

So it comes down to no machining flying-parts for others. I will limit my efforts to offering jigs and fixtures that I make during my build.

It has been a short, steep and slightly brutal learning curve, but certainly food for thought.

So, thanks to all the well wishing and encouragement, but I guess it is time too look at Plan-B, or maybe Plan-Zero. :D
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
Dennis Fetters posted an excellent comment in a thread not long ago about "liability protection" when it comes to selling "parts".

The upshot was this:
You must "purchase" the waving of "rights" from the Contractee by exchanging something of "value" for the value of their "waving the rights". A simple one page document outlining the outright purchase of said rights for a "fee" is all it takes.

No "family" can stop a legal adult from "selling" away their personal rights...hence...the family has no "standing" and no case should they ever think about law suits at some point in the future.
When it comes to making parts...a second document simply outlines the "work" to be performed on a fee basis. If the customer supplies all materials...even better.

Dennis has had this tested in a court of Law (purchasing the rights)...it holds water.
Contact him through PM to find out more.

M-M
 
Last edited:

DaveAndPete

Newbie
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
24
Location
Show Low, AZ
Thanks Mike,

I just did a search on Dennis and could only find this thread that approached Legal issues...
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25671

I pulled up all his posts and looked back for 6 pages to mid 2009 and could not find anything related to making stuff and waiving rights. I am not saying you are incorrect, it is just that I have not found anything yet.

It is an area I am definitely not versed in as is obvious from the mess I started here :) and will leave my direction to Learned Council, who in my case is the former DA. A bummer I know but she can be a terrier with "I told you so." :D Don't ask how I know! :eek:
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
Sorry Dave...that's not the thread.

So you know...it doesn't matter if your selling used parts, or simply supplying LABOR to machine parts...purchasing the "waived rights" eliminates all future liability.
The important legal point is this: you must exchange "value" in exchange for "value received"...people cannot be induced to give the rights away for "free". Once "value" is received in like kind for the signed waiver...it's all over with re: future liability.
Ask your "former" DA friend about that.

It's a shame to turn away paying customers when the liability solution is so simple...and legally air tight.

M-M
 
Last edited:

Tom_Millican

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
72
Location
Somerville, TN USA
Aircraft
Own: Ultralight Gyro, currently down for maintenance. Rent/Fly: Cessna 152/172/182
Wish it were that simple.
Anyone can waive or sell their right to sue. No one can waive or sell another person's rights. Your retired DA is correct regarding the law. There must be a way for you to go forward with your manufacturing. Perhaps you could revise your fee plans so the cost of going LLC would be covered quickly?
Good luck, I hope you get this going so you can produce more than gigs and tools. I may need parts myself soon.

Tom
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
Wish it were that simple.
Anyone can waive or sell their right to sue. No one can waive or sell another person's rights.

I suspect that the point I was attempting to make was completely missed...which is why I contend "She" is not completely correct.
Her base premise IS somewhat correct (LLC et al)...but protection is not completely afforded even with LLC or LLP.

Case law research (required for an actual "Trial") would show in the end that her premise would NOT prevail in a court of law...since recent case law is the precedent by which that case will be decided...not simply a legal theory based on her work in THAT state at that time period.
Much can occur in several years of case law rendering formerly valid legal views moot.
As a former DA...I'm sure she was competent in her work....but that is most often Criminal cases (I'd bet at least 90+% of all the case load) and often argued by one of numerous Attorneys working in that office.

Again...if the potential "Buyer" sells their Legal rights away...end of issue.

No "Family" would have any standing in ANY court to sue after the fact...period.
The buyer decided to sell...the Family cannot have anything to say about that (Legally)...only the buyer can Legally choose.
In the absence of just such an agreement...you are then WIDE OPEN to the real possibility of a Law suit from the "Family" members possibly years after the fact.

M-M
==========
(If you happen to read this thread Dennis Fetter...can you please post the link to your experiences you shared here on the Forum about this very issue...I haven't been able to track it down yet. Thx.)
 

DennisFetters

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
3,321
Location
Abu Dhabi UAE
Aircraft
582 Commander Elite
Total Flight Time
Stopped counting years ago after 5,000
I ==========
(If you happen to read this thread Dennis Fetter...can you please post the link to your experiences you shared here on the Forum about this very issue...I haven't been able to track it down yet. Thx.)

I'm sorry, I did a search but it only goes back a year. I'm in China right now working on a big helicopter project and don't have the time right now to write it all down again, but you did a very good job explaining it.

In a nutshell; You can't ask someone to give up their right to liability, but you can buy it with cash or in fair trade.

You write in the contract that you and the buyer agree that you are selling this item at a substantially reduced price in Lu of the need that the seller buys liability insurance to protect himself. So the buyer agrees in order to safe a butt-load of money, that he will trade his right to pursue any liability issues. That is a far trade, and he can't change his mind later if something happens because he already saved the money so the seller delivered as agreed. If he gets killed, then his family can't sue and win against the seller. If the family don't like the buyers deal, they need to sue the buyers estate.

I know many will argue if this is valid, but I have won on this fact in court by having the judge dismiss the case. It only works if you spend money to fight.
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
Dennis...
I know your almost always busy...so I thank you for your input, I was hoping you'd stop by.

I'm not attempting to start a flame war here, but I feel it IS an important issue for all of us to know a REAL method (tested & found effective) to contractually protect ourselves- whether it is used parts we are selling, or even the custom manufacture of a part by sub-contract means.
I know that Manufacturers' have a much steeper level of liability (was one myself long ago)...since they are the originators of the product, they carry a higher level of responsibility for the creation of the item in the first place (unlike a sub-contractor).

I'll still hunt for the link, and if I do find it, will post it here again....so good was that information..!!

I remember this much...that it was not a thread you started, but a comment you offered to someone elses' thread.

Oh well...no prob.
Thanks once again.

M-M
 

automan1223

Banned
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
3,760
Location
Oriental, North Carolina
Aircraft
2p Tandem Air Command "Big Red"
Total Flight Time
250
Case law ?

Case law ?

Dennis ,

Best of luck in China.

What state was this (name of case) tried in ?

I would like to research the opinion.

J
 
Top