Listing items for sale here

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
16,888
Location
Fort Mill South Carolina
Aircraft
Vans RV4 / Dominator 582 Ultrawhite
Total Flight Time
ALOT
This is NOT ebay. This is not Barnstomers. This is not YOUR PRIVATE classifieds site.

DO NOT post your stuff here if your not going to like peoples comments to your ad.

Its as simple as that.

While we don't want to have people being disrespectful and creating problems for a seller for no good reason. We also have no issue with caveats or warnings or good advise being shared if someone is listing something without giving its full history or sugar coating things.

For a few dollars you can put a ad on barnstomers that will reach 100 times the amount of people any ad here will reach. And no one can upset you when they comment about how your not disclosing your severe blade flap event that destroyed the tail and prop, or your helicopter having severe " shakes " which could stress any and every part of the machine, Etc....

Again, no one here wants to see sellers ad's tainted just for the sake of tainting a ad. But if there is some history or aspect of a machine listed here for sale, thats not being disclosed, I sure hope people step up and share that information so no buyers get stuck with a lemon or potentially dangerous machine, or at the very least can be aware of whatever problems might exist and can address them before trying to fly their new toy.
 
So what prompted this thread?
 
I would agree Ron, but out of respect it would be nice if the people that responded would be courteous enough to have knowledge of knowing what they are talking about before commenting on something or actually have experience in the aircraft before commenting. Too many "experts" commenting with neither quality. Just makes for an environment that makes the community look bad.

As an example - if I was a die hard CLT guy that learned in a CLT machine I could go on every ad placed for a guy trying to sell a traditional Air Command gyro and tear the ad up saying that the gyro should never be flown by anyone because it is a horrible design that is unsafe. Since I would have never flown a traditional machine and have only read what happens to those that do not have the knowledge to understand the limitations and the skill to stay out of trouble in the machine, I would flap my tongue with babble that does nothing but hurt a seller and every other pre-CLT machine owner because I have no experience and no understanding.

I could do the same for the Mini-500. Horrible machine that should be flown by nobody, right? - even if operated and modified to the best know standards? And then there is the Helicycle. 6 machines have experienced a shake out of 90 flying and now we know the answer is to have rigid motor mounts, properly rigged blades, and tight controls, and IF the shake ever happens simply pull more collective and it immediately goes away. That is the fix and the end of the story; however, the eye and ear is never satisfied here, so we have to make a point to bash anyone that is HONEST enough to post a problem they have experienced and never accept their findings as acceptable. Furthermore, we would rather listen to people that have no experience in owning or flying said machine.

It will never end and that is sad. What we forget to realize is that these machines are experimental and are priced at a FRACTION out what a certified machine costs and cost a FRACTION of what it takes to own a certified machine. Go buy a R22 with 100 hours on it and fly it 75 hours per year and tell me what you spent. You are not going to get the same machine in an experimental as you will certified. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either want to fly something different and have the freedom and risk that comes with that choice or you pony up the cash and hassle and live within the restrictions of a certified machine. My machine has NO hidden problems, but it does have a bunch of people talking that have no clue what they are talking about. Looking back, I probably should have just kept my mouth shut and worked with the guys at Helicycle. I thought being open about my experience was a good idea. Looking back it was probably not in the "rotor craft sport's" best interest because those commenting have no idea what they are talking about - again just opinions and babble not based on facts.

So, there you are. We can chose to learn and contribute or we can chose to blast people to make ourselves look better.
 
If someone places a ad for example, a early no horizontal stab high thrustline RAF or Aircommand.... your right, it would not be cool to have people ( whether they have flown in one or not ) coming onto the ad and bashing it just to bash it. But now if the ad is worded as such that " this gyro is perfectly safe and all that H stab and CLT stuff you read here is hogwash " well then I say it is our duty as a community to refute that and make sure some newbie surfing our site and looking at Ad's aren't mislead.

I know you personally have your issues with me mentioning your " shakes " with your helicycle. You had the issue, its public knowledge, you have found out the " cure " for it now after the fact and your having or have already had the engine remounted and whatever other changes to prevent it from happening again. Good. My point in bringing it up is its called disclosure.... To you or 99 percent of people out there, it may not matter, but for some, myself included, I would want to know the ship was involved with something of this scope. No different than a hard landing or minor accident. The description of the " shakes " you portrayed here was very violent and to me if a helicopter is shaking that badly, i would want every inch of the frame, controls, gearboxes and so on closely checked over. It doesn't mean, Don't buy this helicycle, and doesn't mean its worth any less than other helicycles, but it does mean buyer beware and make sure to check this bird over good.

Another parallel way to look at it would be if someone was in their gyro, and got into a violent blade flap during takeoff and it was bad enough the blades came back and chopped the tail and prop and damaged the blades themselves. Then a few months later you see the same gyro up for sale, with new blades, new tail and prop. Seller claims everything is in A-1 condition and buy with confidence. But you know it had a hard flap. That flap could stress and crack the entire machine... the controls, the rotorhead, all the hardware in the control and rotorhead systems, the airframe, etc.... And since the prop was struck, there is a very small possibility of internal gearbox damage or crankshaft damage etc... OR.... might be nothing wrong with all of that. But if someone is listing that machine, I believe potential buyers should be made aware of the gyros history.

If the machine in question is just advertised on barnstormers, then the only way a buyer might be made aware of its history or design flaws etc... is if he or she is already educated... or if the seller is extremely honest and forthcoming.... or if the buyer comes here and says " hey guys, what should I know about this machine before I buy it"

I don't want to discourage people from placing ad's here. They are free, and they reach the target audience for sure. Place a good honest ad, at a fair price and people should leave your ad alone. Mislead people, leave out important history of the machine, price is ridiculously high, and you can expect some comments in your ad thread from folks. And thats the point of THIS thread, if people are in your ad thread and you don't like it, don't cry about it, it is a forum not a private classified ad.

If someone is trashing your ad and you feel it is totally uncalled for, notify one of the moderators and we will look into it and if we agree, we will clean up your ad.
 
Ron, I appreciate where you are coming from, however, forums such as this are a great place to let like minded people know what they have for sale.... many people would be devastated to learn something they want got sold without them knowing it was available if it wasn't advertised on here..... that is what forums are for.

I believe a better way would be for a member to place an ad/thread on what he/she has for sale and the thread is locked, so people can ring/email/pm etc without all of the funny stuff (or serious bagging) that goes on....

Anyone advertising on a forum knows that whatever they are selling will cop all of the mad buggers bagging it, telling him/her the 50 or so things that are wrong with it, how someone else sold one half that price, twice as good just yesterday, but that is to be expected.... as long as the serious, actually interested person actually does see that the thing of interest is for sale.

We are prolly all guilty of bagging stuff, me included:eek::p I would just say that anyone wanting to advertise something on here should take 2 teaspoons of cement and harden up..... they should eventually get a genuine buyer who can see thru the silliness others may have said about it.... here is a link to a mate Russ's gyro for sale in Oz and all the scullduggery we went on about.... yet he is still getting interest from serious buyers..... it is quite funny actually (unless you are Russ, of course) :yo:

http://www.asra.org.au/smf/index.php/topic,4605.0.html :plane:
 
I am not saying to NOT place ad's here. I welcome and encourage ad's here.

What I am saying is this is a forum, not a private classified ad site. So people are free to comment on anything and everything here, including classifieds. And unless it is totally uncalled for, and or completely off topic and negative, you might have comments in your ad thread that you may not like. And I don't want to hear people whining and complaining about it.

Mark is selling his sportcopter, and in that ad, there is a good example. Two people posted comments that he probably doesn't like.... someone posted something about why was no price listed..... and then someone else posted something about the price being too high. Mark took it like a champ and never complained and explained that in fact the price was very good if you look at what he has and what it would cost to replicate it.

On the other side of it, we had a guy selling his commuter helicopter here a few years ago. It was a disaster. Another forum member went to " test fly " it and it shook so bad the tail boom cracked and fell off. Was there any mention of this in his ad? No. Would you want to know about that if you were considering buying that machine? I know I would. But it wasn't mentioned by either the seller or the test pilot, at least not at first as I recall. In a private ad, these things can't be brought up, here they can. And I hope they do. For the buyers sake and so people don't get burned.
 
Any one using a forum has to understand that any photo they place, any ad they make, any comment they make is open to criticism and comment from everyone... so forums it is seller/advertiser beware and as always.... buyer beware.... so everyone just be aware, ok :noidea::yo:
 
If someone places a ad for example, a early no horizontal stab high thrustline RAF or Aircommand.... your right, it would not be cool to have people ( whether they have flown in one or not ) coming onto the ad and bashing it just to bash it. But now if the ad is worded as such that " this gyro is perfectly safe and all that H stab and CLT stuff you read here is hogwash " well then I say it is our duty as a community to refute that and make sure some newbie surfing our site and looking at Ad's aren't mislead.

I know you personally have your issues with me mentioning your " shakes " with your helicycle. You had the issue, its public knowledge, you have found out the " cure " for it now after the fact and your having or have already had the engine remounted and whatever other changes to prevent it from happening again. Good. My point in bringing it up is its called disclosure.... To you or 99 percent of people out there, it may not matter, but for some, myself included, I would want to know the ship was involved with something of this scope. No different than a hard landing or minor accident. The description of the " shakes " you portrayed here was very violent and to me if a helicopter is shaking that badly, i would want every inch of the frame, controls, gearboxes and so on closely checked over. It doesn't mean, Don't buy this helicycle, and doesn't mean its worth any less than other helicycles, but it does mean buyer beware and make sure to check this bird over good.

Another parallel way to look at it would be if someone was in their gyro, and got into a violent blade flap during takeoff and it was bad enough the blades came back and chopped the tail and prop and damaged the blades themselves. Then a few months later you see the same gyro up for sale, with new blades, new tail and prop. Seller claims everything is in A-1 condition and buy with confidence. But you know it had a hard flap. That flap could stress and crack the entire machine... the controls, the rotorhead, all the hardware in the control and rotorhead systems, the airframe, etc.... And since the prop was struck, there is a very small possibility of internal gearbox damage or crankshaft damage etc... OR.... might be nothing wrong with all of that. But if someone is listing that machine, I believe potential buyers should be made aware of the gyros history.

If the machine in question is just advertised on barnstormers, then the only way a buyer might be made aware of its history or design flaws etc... is if he or she is already educated... or if the seller is extremely honest and forthcoming.... or if the buyer comes here and says " hey guys, what should I know about this machine before I buy it"

I don't want to discourage people from placing ad's here. They are free, and they reach the target audience for sure. Place a good honest ad, at a fair price and people should leave your ad alone. Mislead people, leave out important history of the machine, price is ridiculously high, and you can expect some comments in your ad thread from folks. And thats the point of THIS thread, if people are in your ad thread and you don't like it, don't cry about it, it is a forum not a private classified ad.

If someone is trashing your ad and you feel it is totally uncalled for, notify one of the moderators and we will look into it and if we agree, we will clean up your ad.

Fair enough,

But that is just it - I did fix every aspect of the machine that the factory called for. New Blades (even though the old ones were fine), new elastomeric bearings, new style cyclic mixer, new style motor mounts, etc. In total - about $15k of repairs. Furthermore, I flew it another 15 hours and gave demo flights to 100MPH, quick stops, etc. The machine is fine.

I sell it to someone (unknowingly a straw purchase) who let it sit on the trailer (out of the weather.) Someone went to look at it and claimed that the mast was rusted and would need replaced. The "mast" they are talking about is the hood lift strap (not mast) that has surface rust since it did not get painted after being replaced. It is going to take about 30 minutes to remove it, paint it, and re-install it. Some of the bolts that were supplied by Helicycle for the motor mounts also developed some surface rust, so they are being replaced. The rest of the helicopter is fine, yet someone here decides to blast the machine and say it is a total loss.

So, then others pop in and say "yep, better look at every piece of this machine....."

Once it is flying I will make another video along with some pics. Those interested can come watch it fly as well and then decide if it is for them. Then again, I may just keep it as there is not a helicopter flying for $50k that will do what the Helicycle will. We shall see.
 
Baron, If you have fixed everything then anyone who is serious about buying it would be satisfied that you fixed it. I hope if you do decide to sell, you get top dollar, seriously.
 
Thanks for the kind words Ron; now if you would please use your moderator powers to help me find a buyer, I would be ever grateful.

Good luck with that! :) It will be a hard sale, its alot of scratch for a single place gyro, but it is a top of the line gyro and your right, it would cost that much or more plus a long wait to get a new one built to match. Im thinking the best move for you is to MOVE!!! come down off them mountains and get to where that thing will be a rocket for you!
 
Baron, If you have fixed everything then anyone who is serious about buying it would be satisfied that you fixed it. I hope if you do decide to sell, you get top dollar, seriously.

We shall see. I really don't care about top dollar as that is not my motivation. My goal going forward is to promote this sport as one with people that show a little humility and are not so quick to judge, especially when they do not know what or who they are judging.
 
stick around a while, and when you see the crap we have seen, you will see why you were judged. You brought it upon yourself when you more or less said you didn't really need training to fly a gyro and might only get a few hours at most. I don't know you, but it doesn't matter who you are or how good you are, these machines are like nothing else out there and everyone will need at least some training to be safe in them. This community isn't a bad bunch of people, when you as a newbie feel there is something wrong with the community, its probably best to look in the mirror and wonder why.

I can fly a helicopter... Just ask Justin Travis, or Mike Bantum or Turbo here... I have fully taken control and hovered and flown and landed their helicopters and I have never had a single lesson. But I would be a jackass to come onto a helicopter forum and brag on how great of a pilot I am and how I want to buy a helicopter and how I might just take a couple hours of training or might not, since I probably don't need it. Even if I was a knucklehead and felt that way ( I don't ) I would be stupid to say that on a forum and not expect some backlash.

And thats a helicopter forum I am talking about. This here is a gyro forum.... And gyros attract some really weird people, often times the kind of people that don't belong anywhere even close to a flying machine. So you have to understand us and where we come from. Were not a bad group of people here.
 
So, the fact that I said I would probably take a couple of hours training insulted those that tooks tens of hours of training enough to call me an idiot, dangerous, etc? Is a dangerous person one that teaches homself to hover a helicopter in his own backyard and then takes lessons for another 10 hours? Whose yardstick are we measuring with here?

Like I said - it is an experimental community and there is risk involved. My helicopter does not require a helicopter add-on since the certification letter spells out that you only need to be an "airman." The Helicycle was easy to fly. I took less than two hours of instruction in an R22 and then flew the Helicycle. I don't see the need for extensive training in something that I understand.

People learn at different speeds. I have a friend who can literally walk up to a piano and play just about anything and he has no training. I cannot play the darn thing regardless of the training. Some people have natural ability. I was not bragging about anything. I was just stating what my intentions were. I had multiple PMs from people wishing me well that did the same thing. They don't post their activities on this forum due to the same experience I had.

Again, it gets back to talking about someone or something you do not know about. It just is common courtesy. Your comment about gyros attracting some "really wierd people" is interesting. I can sympathize with you there as they are the most vocal.
 
I am like you, in that I can hop into almost anything mechanical and operate it right off the bat. I learned to fly in the beginning in a ultralight trainer with a instructor and was soloed and flying after 3 days worth of lessons. I self taught myself aerobatics, float planes, and tailwheel. I bought a power parachute and read a book on how to fly it while taking a dump and then loaded it up and took it to the airport and flew it, zero lessons. My first time in a helicopter I was offered the controls and was able to hover, takeoff, fly the pattern and approach, hover and land without any help. Ask anyone who has seen me fly or who has flown with me and they will tell you Im very good at it.

I know I am not like the average person. And if I am to believe you, you are just like me, you can jump into anything and fly it.

Does that make it smart to just hop into a gyro and fly? Or just hop into a helicopter and fly? NO. Not even for us. Both aircraft can do things that can kill people, that we need training on how to sense it and how to recover or avoid.

As good as I am, I still took lessons in a gyro and I didn't let me ego dictate how many hours I would take. I was going to take however many the instructor thought I needed. Turned out to be about 4 hours. A little less than 4 to be exact. Because of those hours I feel safe in a gyro.

And as good as I am, reguardless of what the airworthiness card states, I would not fly a helicopter ( I might hover one around 10 foot off the ground but not fly higher ) without some training. I would want to be well prepared for autorotations and what to do if I lose the tail rotor, what to do if I encounter any of the things that can cause a loss of control in a helicopter. They just simply aren't as simple to operate as a airplane.

Even as good as you are, even as good as I am, we need to learn to check our ego's at the door sometimes.
 
I agree 100%. First, if you are hovering a helicopter at 10 ft you are asking for trouble. I spent nearly and hour just getting it light on the skids and feeling the torque pedal input needed along with the cyclic back pressure and slight lateral input needed to keep the machine level as it rode. Once I was into a hover it was a cake walk. As for losing a tail rotor: I already had that down - ditch the collective and take what you get. Most people losing a tail rotor in a hover will tip over regardless of their training.

I might also add that I flew RC helicopters (the real ones, not the toys you see on TV) and it is much harder to fly them than the real thing.

I did not take the helicopter out of the hover until I took lessons. I soloed with about 4 hours.

I still say I can fly a gyro without instruction on a calm day. Will I do it? Probably not, because the Helicopter is not much more expensive and does more. I did not realize you could buy a helicopter so cheap. If I do decide to fly a gyro I will probably take a couple hours of instruction. I still stand by that. Bash me if you want, but the proof is in the flying. When I ball one up due to pilot error you can laugh and point fingers.
 
Todd- Of course you could fly a gyro without instruction.. Many of us oldies did...and especially you since you flew a helicopter without instruction..

But the main thing is I would get training in this day and age and you already said you probably would also.

I am NOT a natural at flying.....maybe building crooked stairways and shooting a gun straight.......
 
Hi All,
I read with interest Rons opening line. Knowing Rons habits of reading others threads I believe it was me that he is responding to .This was at the time I made my point re Larry.Some time ago I posted an opinion in this regard that there is too much white anting on this website and that the majority in the gyro industry were placing their adds on Barnstormers. I still stand by my comment. You guys are in a self destruct mode and need to pull your finger out

Ron to me appears to have tunnel vision with the broard brushstoke arguments and as I would say to Ron, I'm only responsible for what I say, Not for What you understand.
Kym.
 
He wasn't responding to you Bosca.
He was responding about a thread that had been deleted at the request of the original seller.
 
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