Learning from an NTSB final report.

ventana7

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I'm baffled by the multiple references to mph. The only time I even look at the airspeed is once at the start of the takeoff roll to make sure the gauge is alive and working, then AFTER takeoff when I monitor airspeed to stay in ground effect until I reach Vy.

The three elements that you control that affect speed (mph) are brakes, throttle, and stick position. You release the brakes when your RRPM reaches a certain number, you advance throttle further when RRPM is above a certain number (200 in my case) and increasing, you move the stick as necessary to balance on the mains. None of those inputs just described are made in reference to airspeed. At some point the gyro lifts off the ground as an uncontrolled event determined by a combination of airspeed and rotor rpm - AFTER THAT is the first time you will do any control input in relation to a specific speed. That input is stick position to maintain ground effect.

Rob
 

chrisk

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Agreed. But it seems that there are some folks who have not learned (or been taught) how to abort a gyroplane takeoff...
I found a version of the Cavelon adn Calidus POH on line. https://autogyrousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/POH_CD_3.1_EN.pdf https://autogyrousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/POH_CV_3.1_EN-1.pdf It has the two warning statements in the take off sections.

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And the "Clutch" sections gives a good ides of how to abort a take off. i.e. reduce power, slow down/brake, and the cyclic stays where it is or comes forward slightly. This is somewhat described below.

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Abid

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I think that's the problem. The pilots/owners having flapping accidents are not following any procedure or any POH. They are truly overwhelmed as PIC and have lost it and we know you cannot have that in an aircraft at as critical a process as takeoff or landing.
The question is why. How have they lost it so badly? Is it because
1) Their training was lacking and they should not have been signed off in the first place. Certainly if you cannot follow procedure specified in the POH. You aren't ready
2) Is it because they were trained and were ok as a beginner gyroplane pilot at the time but took long breaks and then never had the gumption to take refresher training because they thought themselves more capable than they were
3) There were gaps in their training that when a mistake is made in procedure which we will all make a mistake sometime, they don't know and were never taught the actions to remedy the situation safely. Meaning the scenario was never covered
 

Jazzenjohn

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There is one issue that seems to be overlooked when it comes to training with respect to takeoffs. Almost every person I have ever talked to considers it a takeoff after a touch and go. That is not a takeoff in my opinion. Since the blades are up to speed and the risk of flapping is nearly nil, I don't think it should count the same as a true takeoff where the pilot needs to prerotate. I'm not minimizing the value of touch and goes, but two pilots that had 50 takeoffs each, one where he did a full checklist and prerotation from a zero energy state for all 50, and the other who had taken off and did 50 touch and goes would have vastly different experience at the end of training.
 

chrisk

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There is one issue that seems to be overlooked when it comes to training with respect to takeoffs. Almost every person I have ever talked to considers it a takeoff after a touch and go. That is not a takeoff in my opinion. Since the blades are up to speed and the risk of flapping is nearly nil, I don't think it should count the same as a true takeoff where the pilot needs to prerotate. I'm not minimizing the value of touch and goes, but two pilots that had 50 takeoffs each, one where he did a full checklist and prerotation from a zero energy state for all 50, and the other who had taken off and did 50 touch and goes would have vastly different experience at the end of training.
Ok, I'll be the one to disagree. Land, stop, taxi back to the center line, and the rotor rpm is usually about where you would expect if you had prerotated from a zero energy state. --And sometimes less in a cross wind. Of course I am flying in a gyro where the stick can be full back with the prerotator engaged.
 

Jazzenjohn

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Land, stop, taxi to centerline, doesn't sound exactly like a touch and go, but even so, If you are half decent at landing, the blades aren't going to decay to anywhere near a zero energy state from doing that anyway. Are you likely to have to re-engage the prerotator after a typical landing with subsequent takeoff ? If not, I still maintain it isn't the same as a takeoff from a zero energy state. I believe in the value of touch and goes. There is a lot of training in a short period of time when doing them, but the full takeoff is an important exercise as well.
 

chrisk

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Hi Chris
What do you mean when you say, "taxi back to the center line?"
Jim
For some reason student pilots often land to the left or right of the center line. I have them move back to the center line before taking off again. Its a short distance, but it adds time where the rotor RPM decays.
 

chrisk

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Land, stop, taxi to centerline, doesn't sound exactly like a touch and go, but even so, If you are half decent at landing, the blades aren't going to decay to anywhere near a zero energy state from doing that anyway. Are you likely to have to re-engage the prerotator after a typical landing with subsequent takeoff ? If not, I still maintain it isn't the same as a takeoff from a zero energy state. I believe in the value of touch and goes. There is a lot of training in a short period of time when doing them, but the full takeoff is an important exercise as well.
Yes, it is a stop and go landing. The blades do not degrade to zero energy state. But they come close to pre-rotated state. And no, the student does not typically engage the prerotator. For a Magni, basically once the blades are spun up and the stick is full back, the only difference in take off procedure is releasing the prerotator. (and some forget to do this) Its a pretty small difference and in my opinion, it doesn't add much to training to pull off the runway, taxi back, stop the rotor, then prerotate, then taxi onto the runway. That said, in other gyroplanes, there is more of a difference, as the prerotator is disengaged prior to moving the stick back. Even still, the value is questionable. --In my opinion, the real value is in using a take off check list, not a few more cases of prerotating before take off.
 

Doug Riley

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Obviously, a touch-and-go in a gyro is not like one in a FW plane. In the plane, you set down at around stall speed, then power up and go. You may not go slower than 45-50 mph throughout the maneuver.

A gyro touch-and-go, OTOH, ought to include a full flare (otherwise, it's not valid as practice for how you actually land a gyro). Therefore, you will be stopped or nearly so before you power back up. Once you do power up, you'll go through the nosewheel-lift-and-balance exercise before lifting off. So you get practice in at least the later part of a standard takeoff.

For this reason, touch-and-goes are worthwhile, time-saving exercise in gyros, IMHO.

But students do need practice as well in the entire takeoff sequence, from rotor stopped to climbout.
 
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