Larry Boyer's new RAF

CLS447

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
6,324
Location
Reading, PA
Aircraft
Air Command 503 & Air Command SxS /EJ2.5
Total Flight Time
Aprox 400 gyro
Here are some pics I took of Larry's RAF with his drop keel, lowered engine machine. He said this mod keeps the tail wheel at the same height but moved the tail back 10".
 

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Looking good.......BUT!!!!!!!!

Looking good.......BUT!!!!!!!!

.....I know, I know, there is always a but with me!!!!! LOL :eek:

The axle will definately have to moved back at least 4". Due to the thrust line now being closer to the CoM the nose will come up too early before there is any rudder authority. :eek:

Placing the nosewheel back on the ground lowers the disc AoA so flat that the rotors a very slow to gain rrpm. :eek:

I was reluctant at first to shift the axle due to the work load, but when I did I was so glad that I did it. The take offs are chalk and cheese with or without the nosewheel moved. :)

The last little bit of work to complete a job well done. ;)

Aussie Paul. :)
 
Paul, thanks for advice. always appreciated!!!!
When you flew the mod done on your friends, did he move his gear back?
 
Yes Larry, we have now shifted all axles back on the modified Rafs except one and it will be done.

Unfortunately there is no other way!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry!!!!!!!! LOL

Aussie Paul. :)
 
Larry, you are a dichotomy to me. You step and extend your keel, drop the engine and install a stab.....all the right things that require a lot of hard work and thought, so I don't understand why you so vehemently defend Wayne and his disastrous lack of stability knowledge in the stability thread. He advocates the opposite of all the hard work you put into your excellent gyro to make it a safe flying gyro. To him, the perfect gyro is one with a foot high thrustline and no horizontal stabilizer, things that you are countering with your efforts. I don't get it, buddy.
 
Ken, Let's get one thing straight! You are my buddy. :) Secondly, It peaves me a little when a new idea comes out and imediately some people jump all over it as a gimic or even worse- heiracy! When Larry Martin came out with his ultimate stab, many people bashed him for his remarks about the huge improvement it made to the stability.Well I am here to say it works better than my expectations. Many called it just a bandade.I am not defending RAF because they believe a stab is not the answer, I think it is one way and I bought into it. They think you should stabalize the rotors.That may be another way. I know that the general gyro thought process doesn't lean in that direction. I defend them because they stepped out side the box and away from conventional wisdom. They came up and promote a new idea.That's what I defend. If AAI had come up with the idea I think it would have been better embraced.
You are right. I did put some hard work into my new project. The kit was not built, so it was not much more effort to make changes vers a already built machine.You experience a lot of work when you changed yours over, I'm sure.I am changing the new one because most of us agree that a clt machine is more efficient and has more stability. I have received many emails from people that read the forum that are waiting to see what I have to say about the stepped keel and the engine drop.Read the post about a conversation I had with Allen titled "a man in the know". That is why I am making the effort. I would add a stabalator if the stab on my older RAF didn't do the job.Why? Because the report and people I talked to say it works!I would like to try before I buy. One last note. I will change my older RAF over to the new keel conversion if it flys like Allen says his does. But Only because it works and I feel the difference. :rolleyes:
 
I think Peter W. did a good job in the other thread about "theoretical" items. I also maintain that until RAF gets some engineering data and outside testing done, it's still not a proven device. As far as jumping on the Stabilator as a gimmick, I can only refer once again to Don's comment about an HS being a "contraption"....his exact word. The HS had been tested and validated by much testing, both paper and actual when he made his statement. Now he comes out with a device designed by an aerodynamically-challenged rep with no testing other than "many said it feels nice." C'mon, Lar. There has to be more than that to prove a device worthwhile. If someone comes out with a supposed innovation, they have to prove it does something positive empirically. That has been done to practically everyone's satisfaction as to CLT and stabs. All the people here with engineering knowledge have explained why the Stabilator does nothing as to PPOs on a HTL gyro.

RAF has offered nothing except seat-of-the-pants opinions on their Stabilator. Of course a lot of us are skeptical about anything RAF says or does. We have mountains of contradictions and lies by them in the past as to their components and products. Remember the "Fire-Proof Foam" for the gas-tank? They didn't even put some in a jar of gas to find out that it disintegrates in gas and would block the fuel lines and filters, causing engine outages, before they were stuffing it into their gas tanks and shipping them out the door to unwary customers. Don't you think a company's reputation for stupid moves and lies would have something to do with the marketplace accepting anything they later come out with at face-value? One better be skeptical of a company that makes doofus moves like the foam if they want to stay alive. How about their 30-plus lies about their faulty ignition systems that caused at least one roll-over? A company has to earn the public's respect by their reputation. RAF has failed miserably, time and time again. O.K., who's going to be the first one to claim this post as "bashing."
 
Ken, you basher you!! :eek: You are the type of person that if we were neighbors or in the same flying club, we would be fast friends. You speak from experience and that is what I and many on this forum want.Don't tell me you read where this happened or you heard that that happened and therefor it is gospel. You had some bad experiences and you have a taste for the company that I don't suppose will ever go away. Almost like a Monica Lawinski. :) Speaking from experience is not bashing if there is merit and constructive and people learn from it. I have an issue with RAF but it is not about defective parts. They suggested I send an extra hubbar that I had up to them to magnaflux to see if it was sound.($700 value).I was going to use it with the new blades I was going to order and try to save a few bucks. I asked for the test results. To date(8 months later)I have no test results and no hubbar back.Now what I posted is not bashing RAF but I am stating a fact. Are they protecting me from myself if I used the hubbar or did they lose it to sell a new one.How our perceptions can change from one side to the
other.I see your side of the fence.
Ilove to fly my RAF. Your posts have made me more conscious of issues that should be monitored consistantly.Stan and I believe we have a great flying machine. Many others also. You must like some things about your RAF or you would have sold it and bought a new Sparrowhawk.Yes?No? Not to mention that if you had any talent for being a RAF pilot, you wouldn't need to fly that Upgrade that is so stable you dont need experience and pilot skill.You just climb up into it, turn the starter key, point it in the right direction, set back and enjoy the ride. At least I have to move the stick once and awhile to keep it from bunting over. :D
 
Larry, they got your parts for over 8 months and nothing???? why the heck aren't YOU bashing them? If no one says anything and keeps it all under the rug then companies like this will just keep screwing people over... and over.... and over.... and over.....
 
Larry, a lot of people forget that I started out with a stock RAF. I was seriously considering selling it after about 8 months of getting the crap scared out of me everytime I hit a little updraft and the thing would almost come to a stop while the nose shot skyward, sometimes causing me to believe I was going over on my back.

I also was experiencing at various times a failed alternator, cracking muffler X2, cracking rod-end bearings, a failed ignition (that scared the crap out of me that was left after the ballooning frights), quick-wearing tires, developing cracks in my blades, a sheared Jason belt on take-off, a failed Bendix in the prerotator, a cracked lower prerotator housing, a cracked upper prerotator housing, a cracked drive-plate, a worn out water pump, leaking timing-belt bearings, a timing pulley with a bent-over flange, a completely dry timing-belt tensioner, numerous lies by Peter, Linda and Don.......crap! I have to stop. My fingers are getting sore. I'm sure I left more things out.

Luckily, Rob Sanders of NZ came out with a basic stab design and got pissed at RAF after he spent a small fortune to send them one and it just sat in the corner. I asked him for drawings which he promptly sent and I had one made. I loved it. I spoke with Rob and he said he had no intentions of marketing them and to feel free to do so. So I did, after having it refined some by Hammerhead Aviation.

I then decided that I had a small fortune tied up in this thing, it flew 1,000% better and to just go ahead and replace all the faulty components that came to light....which I did. If the Sparrowhawk conversion hadn't come out, I'm sure I'd still be happily flying around in my stab-equipped RAF with upgraded components. The stability seemed O.K. to me at the time, and I would still feel O.K. flying one with a stab except in some wild weather. However, when the SH conversion came out, I realized from the info garnered here, that the conversion made it somewhat better, so I went ahead and did it. I'm actually still constantly trying to improve it as with my latest additions..the IVO cockpit-adjustable prop and the hydraulic prerotator activation.

I don't think I've ever knocked an RAF that had a decent HS and the owner took the pains to replace some of the above crap that was sold to us to make it safer.
 
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Ken; just so I can get this straight in my head: you spend $25K to get an RAF kit and another $5-10K to make it flyable? Or with recent hub bar development, blades, etc does it cost a total of another $25k on top of the kit price to get to where everyone is starting to think a gyro should be? If so, once every thing is repaired and replaced, what kind of value does a fully moded RAF have? $30K, maybe? I kind of need to know 'cause I'm finally to the point of working out rates and minimum/maximum hull values (physical damage). (if it weren't for this forum, I'd be six months away from submitting the reports I sent in last week!! Thanks everyone. You've all been helpful)
 
No, I spent at least another 25K to get it to where I want it, and am still improving it. The SC blades were about 4500 as was the SH conversion/upgrade. I also spent 5K to to develop the first stab that was made available. That's why the Sparrow Hawk is really a bargain, even though a few thou more than an RAF initially. I doubt that I would ever get anywhere near what I have in it if I decided to sell it. Why would anyone pay me that kind of money when they can buy a SH for about half? I don't think anyone has been getting much more than 20K on a resale. maybe I'm wrong, but don't go by asking prices in the ads.
 
You would be surprised how many people try to convince me Trade-a-plane is just like Blue Book. Thanks for the info.
 
Ken: 130 plus actual wheels off the ground time....since March 1st in my RAF. To date....my problems...

one NAPA supplied fuel pump failure...I have a back up

I noticed a small crack in my angled crankshaft support plate...RAF promptly sent me a blue anodized one to match.

I had a prerotator belt start to fray a little....I think it was my fault for the belt tension.

Thats it.....and its been a total pleasure having a machine so dependable and nice to fly.

I never have it bob and weave....it flies real nice in thermals. Mine isnt the only one that flies nice. I talk to a lot of RAF pilots. I continually catch myself shaking my head while flying ....I find it humerous how nice my RAF handles.....against what I have read.....night and day difference for what I have found out....and I am not exagerrating in the least.


Ken....My pre-rotator is not up to par....but I am taking some hints from your excellent posts on how you are improving yours. I am blaming myself for some of my slow rotor rpm's. I routed my pre-rotator cable in front of the engine brace....thinking that this would keep it out of the prop should the bottom end come loose. That it will do ....but at the price of putting a sharp bend right there where it bends around the engine brace.

Things I want to improve on my RAF..

I must get my pre-rotator up near 200....either by fixing it myself...or buying one of Kens modification kits when available..

I have a blank place in my instrument panel that I need to put in a decent radio this winter. My built in hand held is not transmitting well at all

I want to put denser foam in my seat. I do a lot of two hour flights...and that seat needs a little more padding.

Other than that.......I dont want to change a thing....I am real content with it. :D

Stan
 
Stan, I went to a 50 inch prerotator cable, but that's for a Sparrowhawk conversion. Get one short enough to curve gently upward above the cross-bar, but not short enough that if you forget to take off the gust-lock, haven't re-inforced your cheek-plates to keep from twisting radically, and have a ham-handed good friend to prerotate for you so you can watch, it will pull the outer cable out of the aluminum end-housing. I also ordered about a pound of that red grease that was recommended. I must have erased the confirming e-mail, but it's on its way. I'm anxious to see how that works.

I also tried bending my old long cable above the bar. It made it worse with all the friction from the curves. I've been back and forth with an engineer at a company for a component to hopefully resolve this problem. It's not universal joints. I have to keep sending him more and more info without letting on it's for an experimental gyro. He wants the size of the cable, the torque applied, the rpm, the horsepower applied from my drive and on and on. I'm tip-toeing lightly.

Have you done the upgrade to the lower pulley support ala Jim Butler's design? Not having done so could be the cause of you're crack. I have the drawings for anyone that wants them.
 
Ken: I have the upgraded pulley support. Do you just order any length of pre-rotator cable and shaft? I think I will do that next.

Thanks
Stan
 
Gentleman! hold the prerotator buying spree. I had a Canadian friend tell me what he has done to get his prerotation to 210 consistantly. This is easy to do.
The issue with any machinery is that if you want to increase efficiency, you have to decrease friction. The grip plate can only do so much to over come the friction in the flex shaft especially at the bend.Ken is trying to provide more grip. So therfore more RPM. Unfortunately, that does not reduce friction, but puts more strain on all components.What I heard to do is much simplier and should be less wear and tear. Get yourself a piece of flexible exhaust tubing like they use on the Magni. Take off your connector ends off the RAF flex shaft housing and reattatch to the flex exhaust housing. Get a long piece of tefflon curly wrap like they put on hydrolic hoses and insert into the new exhaust housing you have made. Insert the flex shaft with lots of grease and you have fixed the friction problem!!!My friend says eliminating that friction issue on the bend gave him 60 more RPM. So I am going today to make one and I will report back. This Canadian was attacking the problem at the root of the problem. Good thinking.Hope we all benefit from this idea. Ken, with your hydrolic idea and this friction reduction idea, I think the RAF could spin up with the best. What do you think?
Thats what I love about this forum when we can get past the hard feelings some people have towards some issues, and we can share ideas that can make all gyros perform better and safer.I also appreciate the efforts some of you put forward to help others to have better flying experiences. Many of you invent, like my Canadian friend, with trial and error with your hard earned money. Then when you think you got something, you share it with out requiring anything back. I am proud to be part of the gyro community!( gee... I think I am getting misty eyed.) :p
 
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Dang, I need to learn how to post digitals to this forum. I think I've got the camera down pat, but getting the pics from the camera to the forum???

I have some stuff I could take pictures of that would help a lot of you RAF drivers...such as clamps at the lower and upper ends of the pr sheath, to keep it in place; a simple out of sight clamp to keep your rudder from banging around in the wind when your parked; a nice looking hook for those that like to secure their blades when parked, etc.

Plus, I'd like to post some pics of this beautiful central Florida, horse country, water filled quarries, dirt bike tracks, race tracks, etc.

One of these days...


Cheers :)
 
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