Katech

WHY

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miami,oklahoma
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Ercoupe and Cessna 150, 152, 172, 140, Aeronca,7ac, Citabria,Chief,Piper PA11,PA12
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How did the forum on the Katech engine go ?????

Tony
 
Tony- I wasn't at that forum, but I heard it was very interesting and well received. Almost all the forums were well attended, and we were almost booked solid. Very nice variety of topics.


Stan
 
I felt the forum was very informative. Vance was there asking the tough questions (which much of it went right on over my head) but I think we all learned a lot about what they are offering and what stage they are at and it is pretty exciting. I sure wish them every succsss.

Doug Barker
PRA President
 
Looking for aircraft application "partner-in-prototyping'!

Looking for aircraft application "partner-in-prototyping'!

I felt the forum was very informative. Vance was there asking the tough questions (which much of it went right on over my head) but I think we all learned a lot about what they are offering and what stage they are at and it is pretty exciting. I sure wish them every succsss.

Doug Barker
PRA President

Exciting engine option potential .... possible competitor for the Yamaha conversions,Viking , rotax RST options for 2 place gyros! Sounds like a solid company commited to good support & service ... time will tell! Attractively priced.
Look foward to future developments! :whoo:
 
Tony,

The seminar went well, and I was surprised when the questions were far more technical than I expected, including dealing with issues such as the contribution of rod length, cam timing, intake dimensions and the like on performance. This was exactly what I hoped would happen, and Fritz got into as much depth as the attendees wanted.

When I asked Katech to come, I hoped they'd be well-received by our group, but I was equally hopeful they'd be impressed by the gyro folks, since I'm trying to convince them to make a gyro their development mule. I think success was had on both counts.

I had a chance to spend lots of time with Fritz and Barry at their display, and our group made a very good first impression. Fritz was amazed at the workmanship and ingenuity he saw in solving the challenges typical of gyroplanes, and we managed to get Fritz his first gyro flights in Mark Shook's Xenon and Desmon's MTO, very impressive and very different machines.

This week is Katech's "Track Attack" customer appreciation and promotion event, so it will be another week before I have a chance to really debrief Fritz. But I think there will be exciting things happening soon with this engine, and I think they'll involve a gyro!
 
Good to hear that there is going to be another contender in the power plant field Paul, glad your introductions went well.
 
Chris T.
Attractively priced.
I don't know Chris, $15,000 plus a PSRU and what ever else may add up to big bucks? Stan V.
 
I think the Weber MPE V4 is perhaps ahead in the development scheme, but no matter, the Katech is going to be a contender, hopefully.

Too bad none of these motors will be certificated. They sound like they will cost the same as a Rotax, so that will put off many aviation builders I suspect.
 
It will be a 18,000 engine but what rotax making 165 HP? We need to look at what it is able to replace and at a big weight save. Yes it can replace the rotax 900s. but it is giving you alot more power. It is still a dream until someone bolts it together and flys it. I wish them the best. I would be willing to use my Twinstarr as the test bed. I can get the PSRU mounted to it just need the engine and the 15,000 LOL.
 
All the numbers on the Katech really look impressive, but this is almost a bare block engine, add the redrive and housing, exhaust system, cooling system, oil system, ignition system, and a better sense of reality begins to set in. With all that said it is STILL going to be an impressive engine but with ONE BIG QUESTION ????? While this engine has been used in several applications, it has never powered a 66 inch or 72 inch flywheel (A PROPELLOR) which is where the demon of torsional resonance becomes the fire breathing dragon.

Soooooo,---- until it is coupled up to a gear box and a prop and some high tech vibration measuring equipment attached to it, the jury remains out.

This is a VEE-4 and it is bound to have a whole different complete set of frequencies to deal with and those are not just the ones that shake the engine and you can see, but high frequencies that you cannot even feel, the kind that create metal hardness and fatigue and break things.

The up side to all of this is that Katech has all the facilities to do just this kind of testing along with a lot of R&D so it wont be a lot of field trial "try it and break it" kind of testing that the homebuilder experimenter would have to do. I am quite excited about this engines potential.

Tony
 
...With all that said it is STILL going to be an impressive engine but with ONE BIG QUESTION ????? While this engine has been used in several applications, it has never powered a 66 inch or 72 inch flywheel (A PROPELLOR) which is where the demon of torsional resonance becomes the fire breathing dragon...The up side to all of this is that Katech has all the facilities to do just this kind of testing along with a lot of R&D...

Tony, it's this aspect of this project that got me excited. I've been to Oshkosh, Sebring, and other shows many times and seen impressive one-off engines at the mock-up phase, sitting on tables in exhibitor booths. Most of them are never seen again. Katech is a substantial company with proven rapid-prototyping expertise. If they decide they want to do this, it will happen.

These guys do engine prototype development work for GM, so they have a who's-who of R&D companies in their Rolodex. They've already identified a partner with a track record in characterizing difficult torsional issues and devising tactics to handle them during a gearbox design phase.

The 75º crank pin spacing in their V4 has been found to generate rotational vibrations so low the balance shafts in the original design were not necessary, and have been eliminated in the new engine case. The real issue will be the odd cadence of the firing and exhaust pulses, which will require special handling during exhaust system design, but Katech is confident it won't be a hurdle.
 
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I read some where on these forums that there was a concern of the engine providing too much vibration.

What about the use of a harmonic dampener?

Forgive me if it was a different engine.
 
I read some where on these forums that there was a concern of the engine providing too much vibration...

Speculation is no substitute for data. These guys know what they're doing. I expect we'll know within the next few months if there is an issue, how big, and how it will be (has been) solved.
 
Wow this engine looks more than promising!!! This really has more than a chance of out competing Rotax if we just help a little may be very quickly.

The rest of the story===

I'm heading somewhere when I was asked if Katech could use my computer for a presentation on Saturday. I said "sure... are they here?" and ran over to see them...

There it was on table such a compact package and my buddy Paul and Fritz and his colleague were there Fritz explained the engine and Katech working with Paul Plack to introduce it to the aviation market and rotorcraft as they had made it for a motorcycle company and had all the tooling now what to do with it as the only market they cannot market it in is motorcycles. Lucky us!!!
I told them Paul was an excellent choice with his background and excellent memory.
I also encouraged him the best I could with the market as I see it and he gets it!!

I got to talk to Fritz for 3 days and ask questions at the forum and he got his first gyroplane ride and liked it!

Fritz who even answered Vance's questions at the forum with no problem is just learning about reduction drives as when I explained I'm working with Tony who is making a coupling for a re-drive he said a what? Once I explained he said Paul had told him but he’s not really familiar with them and still has trouble remembering the name but Katech could make there own. I ask about the weight of their flywheel and he said they do not use one so far. I explain about the prop and re-drives and how tony added a flywheel and cut out a section and place a ¾” rubber pad to dampen the harmonics of the re-drive he was anions to talk to Tony.

I suggested they do not have make there own because Neal already has two models one rated at 160HP and the other 300HP and how often are pilots really going to be flying at 165 HP so Neal's 160HP should work if not use the 300HP on both models. Then you only have to make a coupling like Tony has which ‘BTW’ Tony just mailed me and I would be glad to mail to Katech as an example you could use as one side is Neal’s which you could copy into your CAD program. I’m to call him and I asked if my expert and mentor Tony could call him as he has questions from both of us but more importantly he’s knows the real doer Ernie and Neal and will help put you together and make this happen so your boss will see rapid progress in the shortest period of time.

He also said a couple times in 3 days he was looking for a test bed to put it in and I could not help suggesting I would gladly test it for him however my project is not funded.

I told him about Nicolas and I’d ask Nicolas... but distance is a problem so if I were him I’d walk right over to that tent and ask Ernie as he is a legend at building gyroplanes and using and installing alternative engines and he even makes his own blades.

There is so much more to story but it’s turning into a book..

Back to the engine:

It’s small 110 lb package with a firewall mount and just about everything is internal... I'll scan 3d drawing in tomorrow and post if no one else does by then.

I asked if they could have two spark plugs and ignition systems he said no but we could use two CDI with switches or I described using two Micro Processor Units (MCU's) that have static information based on density altitude that vote on which CDI has the correct values and switch automatically but start with two switches.


The only problem I see and I mean the only problem it is a very high torque motor as when I mention Neals 160HP redrive he said it’s not the HP it’s the torque.

The deadly torque roll is the only problem I see for manufactures and also more thrust for non CLT designs they will need a bigger HS or one placed farther back, which may mean a higher mast, probably both.

But Ernie’s tall tail should help and if they use him I’m betting he can overcome the last problem I see so far as it's CLT or near CLT and even CLT changes probably that much with fuel usage depending how far the tank is from the center of gravity.


If you can help make this happen please call Fritz!
 

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Well, off hand, I spot at least 2 difficulties. First I so not see any starter mounted to the engine, so this means it was mounted in the transmission and would be facing toward the prop (like a converted Subaru) don't really like that set up. secondly, I do not readily see any good heavy attach points on the other end of the engine where the brackets for a cradle mount could be tied to.

What I first thought was a starter is apparently some kind of internal rotating device (counter shaft maybe ?????)

Also, if they do not use a "flywheel" per say, then they HAVE GOT TO USE SOME KIND OF FLEXPLATE with a starter ring on it for the starter to engage.

Tony
 
If it is a stripped down motorcycle engine for display, then alot of the important stuff would have been left off for viewing.

Yes it does pose questions about the particulars. Maybe they wanted us to get the antique feeling with a hand prop start. Otherwise my guess is that Kaytech has only just realized the "other" demand and is working on a satisfactory product?
 
A couple of things...

The Gen-1 engine weighed 141 pounds as displayed. The new one will be about 160, and estimated right at 200 with gearbox and accessories.

I have no business relationship with this company at this time, but encouraged Fritz to come to Mentone after he said he saw some real "beater" gyros at another event, and didn't think much of them. I do hope to offer them some marketing help longer-term, but we're early in that conversation.

The display engine used the 1.6L motorcycle castings. The engine dyno-tested before the show was a hybrid which used the Gen-1 case with the new, larger stroke crank, hence the 1.7L displacement. The new case allows larger bore for the quoted 1.9L final displacement. The first of the castings for the Gen-2 were only finalized a couple days before the show, and will not be received and built until a few weeks from now.

The new case has a 360º bellhousing adapter and includes provisions for a starter on the block side, automotive-style. There's also a new crank which extends a PTO out through the front for pulleys to drive accessories.

...The only problem I see and I mean the only problem it is a very high torque motor...The deadly torque roll is the only problem I see...

"High torque" is a relative term. Katech builds racing engines, and by racing (and motorcycle) standards this will be "high torque."

The torque created on the airframe has little to do with the engine's maximum available torque at low RPM. We're all used to dealing with automotive applications in which the driving wheels couple the drivetrain's full available torque to the ground, even at zero MPH. When driving a prop at idle where it has no "bite," the torque an engine can impart to the airframe when it revs is limited to the torque expended to spin up its internal rotating mass and that of the prop. That component of torque on the airframe lasts only while RPM is rising.

When the prop has reached an RPM at which it starts moving a significant volume of air and loads the engine, the force creating twisting of the expelled airmass produces torque in the opposite direction on the airframe. That's the torque that's continuous during flight at high power settings, but it will be the same for any engine achieving the same HP at that RPM. Having abundant available low-end torque will allow quicker response to a throttle input, but is meaningless at higher RPM. Any engine producing 165 HP at 2500 prop RPM produces the same torque on the airframe at full power, even if one has significantly more torque at lower speeds.

The real issue in developing this engine for aviation use will be the unusual spacing of its firing pulses. That will require some sophistication in the gearbox. Whether an off-the-shelf unit is chosen or Katech designs its own will be determined by factors including damping effectiveness, output shaft location, durability, weight, cost, required lead time on orders, and the reliability of any third party provider as a supply-chain partner.
 
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...my guess is that Kaytech has only just realized the "other" demand and is working on a satisfactory product?

Willy, you're close. This engine is being considered for a number of uses, and has been designed for boosted racing applications exceeding 450 HP. The version we'll be interested in is the detuned street version, which probably wasn't seen as a potential volume application during Katech's initial planning.
 
Thank you Paul... keep us informed, very exciting looks like Ernie will be testing one is what I've learned from Tony last night after he talked to Ernie and Neal and then Fritz!

And Thank you Tony!!!
 
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