July Barnstormers Ads for Gyroplanes and Eng's

All_In

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RAF 2000 MODIFIED . $29,500 . AVAILABLE FOR SALE . 2003 Modified RAF 2000. 320 hr TT/TTAF. Exceptional build currently flying. Sub EJ 2.2 (2200cc) carbureted. Gnd adjust 68" Warp Drive. 33' RAF blades. Included EJ 2.5 litre FI Sub engine ready for install. Experienced engine builder. Call for more info/pics. View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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TANDEM KB 4 KEN BROCK GYRO CLT . $6,500 . AVAILABLE FOR SALE OR TRADE . 27' Rotors, Prerotor and HZ. Needs engine and Rudder.Trade 4 Tractor,4 horse BP Trailer, cycle, boat . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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GYROPLANE SPARROWHAWK . AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY . ***Asking $30,000*** I have 2006 Sparrowhawk with standard Sparrowhawk digital instrument pod, radio, transponder and intercom. This has the 165hp Subaru. 30' Sport Copter blades. This flies very nice. I will be glad to demonstrate for you. I'm also a gyroplane instructor, so I teach you how to fly it. The gyroplane has approximately 250 hours on it. Doors included.Please call with any questions 8-8 eastern time. . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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GYRO PLANE . $65,000 . FOR SALE . Sport Copter Vortex M, fully assembled, air worthiness certificate, check ride by Jim Vanek, brand new, ready to fly, builder decided on 2-seater . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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AUTOGYRO -- KB2 W/ROTAX 503 . $6,000 . OR BEST OFFER! . Good flying KB2 with strong Rotax 503, dual carb setup. Seat tank, instrument pod (alt/airspeed/engine RPM/head temp/exhaust temp/engine hours), strobe and landing lights. 4-blade ultraprop, 10 foot rotordynes on 3 foot hub. Starts, runs, flies!! On currently registered TX trailer. Hangs perfect, flies nice, weighs under 255. Can also include 3 blade ground adjustable ivoprop with spinner($500) and iCom A22 with AA battery adapter, PTT headphones ($200). Call me at 210.870.0114. On trailer, ready to drive away. Delivery available in South Texas region. . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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GYRO . GREAT BUY . Ultralight gyro for sale. Unverified condition of Rotax 532 motor. Selling for a friend. $4300. Gyro located in N. Ky. . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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MCCULLOCH 4 CYL 2 STROKE 72 HP . $795 . CLEANING OUT THE HANGAR . Radioplane Military drone 0-100 aircraft engine 4318 Comes w/ engine mount - mag - carb - fuel pump . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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HIGH PERFORMANCE GYROPLANE . $17,499 . AVAILABLE FOR SALE . High performance single place Dominator style gyroplane. Nothing ordinary about this machine because it sports a fresh <50 hour Rotax 618 with 72" composite prop, on a clutch drive "C" box, EIS, Double bearing rotorhead, 22' Dragon Wings, Hydraulic Prerotator, and the list goes on! This machine is slightly taller than stock because it was built to accommodate a larger propeller than the standard 60". Top speed is 100MPH and it will outperform almost any other single place gyroplane available. Priced less than a new stock machine and available now! Links to images and video available. . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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RAF2000 . $30,000 . FOR SALE TO GOOD HOME . RAF 2000 gyrocopter . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
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CONTINENTAL 0-200 GPU . ACCEPTING OFFERS . This engine has no logs, but good compression. It starts and runs great. Could easily be converted. . View Details at Barnstormers.Com
 

helipaddy

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65k for a single seat gyro!!:rolleyes:
 

All_In

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I guess the one I have for sale didn't show up? Humm
I believe I got all of the ads for July? I can check again; what make/model and price?
 

All_In

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65k for a single seat gyro!!:rolleyes:
I know at first I suspected a typo but doesn't look like it? Even with a 914 that seems very high to me?

It says he wants a two place I guess he wants the buyer of his single-place to pay for it?
 

Oky777

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"GYRO PLANE . $65,000 . FOR SALE . Sport Copter Vortex M, fully assembled, air worthiness certificate, check ride by Jim Vanek, brand new, ready to fly, builder decided on 2-seater"

I guess he thinks Jim's butt print on the seat adds to the value. :)
 

themonarch

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you get what you pay for.....

you get what you pay for.....

65 g's, thats a whole lot of money for an open single place. I guess that the cost of the powerplant comes into play here. Over done, maybe.. But if you are an overly fat guy it will fly you just the same. The balance of value can be attributed to the fact that it is a Vortex. They must be worth it, I figure.
 

Vance

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In my opinion a Reasonable Value.

In my opinion a Reasonable Value.

The M12 ULS kit is listed at $38,495 and a 912 engine is listed at $21,829 for a basic total of $60,324.

It is not hard to spend $5,000 on the panel.

The aircraft has its airworthiness certificate and has been test flown with the attendant costs.

Someone spent a lot of time putting it together.

If I were considering building one I would expect my actual costs to be on the far side of $70,000.

I feel his asking price is reasonable for what it is.

I have not flown a Sport Copter M12 ULS.

It appears to me to be a very nice gyroplane and I have been told the model is selling well.

Thank you, Vance
 

All_In

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The M12 ULS kit is listed at $38,495 and a 912 engine is listed at $21,829 for a basic total of $60,324.

It is not hard to spend $5,000 on the panel.

The aircraft has its airworthiness certificate and has been test flown with the attendant costs.

Someone spent a lot of time putting it together.

If I were considering building one I would expect my actual costs to be on the far side of $70,000.

I feel his asking price is reasonable for what it is.

I have not flown a Sport Copter M12 ULS.

It appears to me to be a very nice gyroplane and I have been told the model is selling well.

Thank you, Vance
Well that explains it. I did not realize their kit was that expensive.
That's more than PRA 31 is spending on their 2 Place Genesis about 40K or less with full instruments and a USED O320 Lyc engine.

The good news...I will not cringe as much when I tell folks the 30+K price of a Genesis G1sa with a new Rotax 912 ULS as compared to 65K it seems a bargain?
 
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Vance

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$30,000 sounds like a bargain to me John.

$30,000 sounds like a bargain to me John.

Well that explains it. I did not realize their kit was that expensive.
That's more than PRA 31 is spending on their 2 Place Genesis about 40K or less with full instruments and a USED O320 Lyc engine.

The good news...I will not cringe as much when I tell folks the 30+K price of a Genesis G1sa with a new Rotax 912 ULS as compared to 65K it seems a bargain?

How much is a Genesis G1sa kit with a new Rotax 912 ULS delivered in the USA?

What is your delivery time?

How many are flying in the USA?

I could not find this information on the internet.

Thank you, Vance
 

Resasi

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I knew Nicolas had made a single seat Genesis with a 912 but no details on it's performance seem to have been posted.

Last time I inquired about it the owner seemed to be having some issues. I have waited to see if it worked out OK and how it flew?

I would also be interested in seeing a Viking/Genesis single seat combo. Bit cheaper perhaps than with the 912 with a slight loss in power to weight ratio. When I first put it to Nicolas he felt the Viking did not have enough time in operation. With a lot out there in aircraft now, and with Ernie B having used it on more than one gyro and endorsing it as a suitable power-plant, perhaps it will be considered.

When I initially turned you on the the Genesis at that Bensen Days John, along with the 532, I also mentioned the Viking then, but it was very new at that time so could see people wanting proven reliability.

If I had the money it would certainly be something I would want to explore.
 

All_In

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How much is a Genesis G1sa kit with a new Rotax 912 ULS delivered in the USA?

Thank you, Vance
I added the new model G1sb which is a little more than the original G1sa too just to be fair.

See 2013 attached price list (PRICES ARE IN EUROS * 1.322 for dollars) I had to subtract out the normal 582 and E box for the price of the 912 ULS price you listed although Nicolas can get Rotax engines cheaper that in the states and he passed the saving on to our customers I did not have our cheaper price of the 912 as a separate option.

From 35K to 42K in dollars for the latest model, 30 Kg lighter, bigger fuel tank & hydraulic brakes

READY TO FLY (assembled like the SportCopter) price with ALL EXTRAS ….....................: 41,619.80 w/ full panel & EIFS + 1,500K to 2K shipping to your door depending on the price of fuel it varies.

The above includes full instruments, 4130 suspension U/C, mechanical prerotator, 7m high-performance blades, strobe & landing lights, 12V outlet, rotor brake, polished controls & head, MIL spec wiring, Rotax twin radiator, electric trim, circuit breakers, hydraulic brakes, 4 point harness, kevlar re-enforced fuel tank, extended cabin, etc.)
The Aircraft is assembled and test flown. No charge to dismantle for shipping.

The quick build kit is about 2K less.

The G2sa two-place with a full panel only costs about 62K with a 912 ULS add 2K for shipping. PRA 31 is building one with a Lyc O320 for under 40K!!!!


...
How many are flying in the USA?
...
None... there is only one G1sa with a 912 in the entire world flying so far.

What is your delivery time?

= in “TWO WEEKS!!!!!!” buddy like everything else in gyroland?:sorry: HAHAHAHA

No, really all the other kits have been manufactures and delivered in about 4 weeks or less.
 

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All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
I knew Nicolas had made a single seat Genesis with a 912 but no details on it's performance seem to have been posted.

Last time I inquired about it the owner seemed to be having some issues. I have waited to see if it worked out OK and how it flew?

I would also be interested in seeing a Viking/Genesis single seat combo. Bit cheaper perhaps than with the 912 with a slight loss in power to weight ratio. When I first put it to Nicolas he felt the Viking did not have enough time in operation. With a lot out there in aircraft now, and with Ernie B having used it on more than one gyro and endorsing it as a suitable power-plant, perhaps it will be considered.

When I initially turned you on the the Genesis at that Bensen Days John, along with the 532, I also mentioned the Viking then, but it was very new at that time so could see people wanting proven reliability.

If I had the money it would certainly be something I would want to explore.
Yaw Mon you be the one Leigh... We are watching the Viking, Genesis, and Yamaha when they have over 300 hours Nicolas says he will re-design for our customers.

There is a G1sa with a 912 here's the link where Nicolas posted the test flight results. Basically it reduced the maneuverability compared to the standard 582 for increased 4 stroke dependability.

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35942
 
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Vance

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My opinion.

My opinion.

I added the new model G1sb which is a little more than the original G1sa too just to be fair.


From 35K to 42K in dollars for the latest model, 30 Kg lighter, bigger fuel tank & hydraulic brakes

READY TO FLY (assembled like the SportCopter) price with ALL EXTRAS ….....................: 41,619.80 w/ full panel & EIFS + 1,500K to 2K shipping to your door depending on the price of fuel it varies.

The above includes full instruments, 4130 suspension U/C, mechanical prerotator, 7m high-performance blades, strobe & landing lights, 12V outlet, rotor brake, polished controls & head, MIL spec wiring, Rotax twin radiator, electric trim, circuit breakers, hydraulic brakes, 4 point harness, kevlar re-enforced fuel tank, extended cabin, etc.)
The Aircraft is assembled and test flown. No charge to dismantle for shipping.

The quick build kit is about 2K less.

The G2sa two-place with a full panel only costs about 62K with a 912 ULS add 2K for shipping. PRA 31 is building one with a Lyc O320 for under 40K!!!!


None... there is only one G1sa with a 912 in the entire world flying so far.

= in “TWO WEEKS!!!!!!” buddy like everything else in gyroland?:sorry: HAHAHAHA

No, really all the other kits have been manufactures and delivered in about 4 weeks or less.

Hello John,

In my opinion there is a 40% difference between $30,000+ and $43,000.

It is probably not important because it appears to me the model is not actually available.

When I was selling Harley Davidsons and they were in short supply people would tell me; "I can buy it at some particular dealer for a lower price than yours." When I would ask them why they didn’t buy it from that dealer they would tell me it was because he didn’t have one.

I felt the dealer pricing on the motorcycle that he didn’t have created a false expectation in the customer and made me appear to be charging too much.

I feel his was not good for the motorcycle business and it is probably not good for the gyroplane business.

I feel if Sport Copter is selling that model for $65,000 there are people who want it and find that value in it.

Suggesting otherwise suggests these people who are buying them aren’t very smart.

I have met two of the people who purchased an M12 ULS from Sport Copter and both of them were experienced pilots and not stupid.

I like my Sport Copter rotor blades and was happy to pay the price for them because my plastic blades were developing cracks and the Sport Copter blades seemed like the best value to me.

Thank you, Vance
 

All_In

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Hello John,

In my opinion there is a 40% difference between $30,000+ and $43,000.

It is probably not important because it appears to me the model is not actually available.

When I was selling Harley Davidsons and they were in short supply people would tell me; "I can buy it at some particular dealer for a lower price than yours." When I would ask them why they didn’t buy it from that dealer they would tell me it was because he didn’t have one.

I felt the dealer pricing on the motorcycle that he didn’t have created a false expectation in the customer and made me appear to be charging too much.

I feel his was not good for the motorcycle business and it is probably not good for the gyroplane business.

I feel if Sport Copter is selling that model for $65,000 there are people who want it and find that value in it.

Suggesting otherwise suggests these people who are buying them aren’t very smart.

I have met two of the people who purchased an M12 ULS from Sport Copter and both of them were experienced pilots and not stupid.

I like my Sport Copter rotor blades and was happy to pay the price for them because my plastic blades were developing cracks and the Sport Copter blades seemed like the best value to me.

Thank you, Vance
Hello Vance,

I cannot understand for the life of me most of your last post except for the price which did surprised me.
I did not point out the 65K price paddy did and I'm sure at the time the customer felt it is worth getting exactly what they wanted. (I should have been watching their prices I wasn't, my mistake or I would have explained like you to Paddy instead of my surprise.)

I'm very confused, how did I say anyone was stupid?:noidea: I only posted the reality of the prices you ask me to post!!!!

And there is a G1sa 912 I posted the link see response to Leigh.:noidea: It does exist and would be happy to sell you a kit to prove it? So far our customers have opted for maneuverability over dependability that's all!!

If anyone else read that I was calling them stupid from any of my comments, they mush have been written badly by me to misinterpret my meaning that much and I'm sorry you choose to read it that way, it was never my intent, I was just surprised at the 65K price for a single-place and so was everyone else who posted but you.

PS:
The 30K PLUS, I first posted, is the lowest price you can buy a 912 G1sa for without a full panel and all the extras, it is the cheapest kit base price + cost of engine, or full panel with a used engine and I used to cringe at it, that's all; nothing odd here either Vance unless your looking for ghosts.
...
Also just a thought but 30+K includes 39K as I was obviously not being specific as it depends on the kit and the options added but why did you not use 39K and add the 2K shipping to it for a total of 41K?
Is the glass half EMPTY today my friend instead of half full?
 
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j bird

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John , when are we going to see chapter 31's Genesis build on the forum, are we going to see it demonstrated and where is it going to be for perspective customers to check it out?
 

All_In

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Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
John , when are we going to see chapter 31's Genesis build on the forum, are we going to see it demonstrated and where is it going to be for perspective customers to check it out?
Yaw Mon Buddy! It will be at the 2014 fly-in's at least by June or in two weeks which ever comes 1st?

PS:
However to fly her you will have to join PRA 31 and become a co-owner, or now and help fund her early, and you have to be checked out by an instructor and sign a liability release, then you can fly her anytime you can schedule available time, if you are rated you can fly passengers at your cost about $37.00 or less per hour + fuel and oil.
 
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Vance

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Givens Predator
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Hello Vance,

I cannot understand for the life of me most of your last post except for the price which did surprised me.
I did not point out the 65K price paddy did and I'm sure at the time the customer felt it is worth getting exactly what they wanted. (I should have been watching their prices I wasn't, my mistake or I would have explained like you to Paddy instead of my surprise.)

I'm very confused, how did I say anyone was stupid?:noidea: I only posted the reality of the prices you ask me to post!!!!

And there is a G1sa 912 I posted the link see response to Leigh.:noidea: It does exist and would be happy to sell you a kit to prove it? So far our customers have opted for maneuverability over dependability that's all!!

If anyone else read that I was calling them stupid from any of my comments, they mush have been written badly by me to misinterpret my meaning that much and I'm sorry you choose to read it that way, it was never my intent, I was just surprised at the 65K price for a single-place and so was everyone else who posted but you.

PS:
The 30K PLUS, I first posted, is the lowest price you can buy a 912 G1sa for without a full panel and all the extras, it is the cheapest kit base price + cost of engine, or full panel with a used engine and I used to cringe at it, that's all; nothing odd here either Vance unless your looking for ghosts.
...
Also just a thought but 30+K includes 39K as I was obviously not being specific as it depends on the kit and the options added but why did you not use 39K and add the 2K shipping to it for a total of 41K?
Is the glass half EMPTY today my friend instead of half full?

I will try to be clearer John.

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you posted John. I feel if someone pays $65,000 for something they could buy for $30,000+ of equal value that is probably stupid or at least ignorant.

I suspect that they find $65,000 of value it the Sport Copter M12 ULS or they probably wouldn’t buy it.

In my opinion the price is not relevant if you don’t have something to sell and because one G1sa 912 exists does not mean you have something to sell or can even pin down the price.

In my opinion you are creating false pricing expectations when you are quoting people $30,000 and a G1sa 912 actually costs $42,000.

I hope you will not put pressure on Nicolas to cut his margins too thin.

It appears to me he has a good product and with a good product there is no reason to strive to be the low price leader and a reasonable profit has value to everyone involved.

It is my observation that without reasonable margins there is no budget for customer service.

It is my observation that without a profit the person operating the business may not be having fun and often works himself out of business.

In my opinion the customer is the loser with unreasonable low prices.

I feel your focus on price is making it more difficult for this person selling his Sport Copter and everyone in the gyroplane business.

I feel people should understand what it is going to cost to fly and in my opinion creating unrealistic cost expectations is not good for anyone.

I am sorry I explained the price of the Sport Copter on Barnstormers.

I am sorry you don’t understand what I am posting John because I am not going to repeat this mistake.

In my opinion your $40,000 trainer with the used Lycoming on it is not comparable to an aircraft with a brand new engine on it. A brand new Lycoming is in the neighborhood of $30,000. I suspect your costs on the trainer will be much higher than $40,000 if you value the time of the people involved.

Thank you, Vance
 

All_In

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I will try to be clearer John.

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you posted John. I feel if someone pays $65,000 for something they could buy for $30,000+ of equal value that is probably stupid or at least ignorant.

I suspect that they find $65,000 of value it the Sport Copter M12 ULS or they probably wouldn’t buy it.

In my opinion the price is not relevant if you don’t have something to sell and because one G1sa 912 exists does not mean you have something to sell or can even pin down the price.

In my opinion you are creating false pricing expectations when you are quoting people $30,000 and a G1sa 912 actually costs $42,000.

I hope you will not put pressure on Nicolas to cut his margins too thin.

It appears to me he has a good product and with a good product there is no reason to strive to be the low price leader and a reasonable profit has value to everyone involved.

It is my observation that without reasonable margins there is no budget for customer service.

It is my observation that without a profit the person operating the business may not be having fun and often works himself out of business.

In my opinion the customer is the loser with unreasonable low prices.

I feel your focus on price is making it more difficult for this person selling his Sport Copter and everyone in the gyroplane business.

I feel people should understand what it is going to cost to fly and in my opinion creating unrealistic cost expectations is not good for anyone.

I am sorry I explained the price of the Sport Copter on Barnstormers.

I am sorry you don’t understand what I am posting John because I am not going to repeat this mistake.

In my opinion your $40,000 trainer with the used Lycoming on it is not comparable to an aircraft with a brand new engine on it. A brand new Lycoming is in the neighborhood of $30,000. I suspect your costs on the trainer will be much higher than $40,000 if you value the time of the people involved.

Thank you, Vance

Gee's all I did was post all the ads in July to help folks out and was surprised at the 65K price for a used single place gyroplane.

I think you're grumpy!!

You ask for the pricing.
You are pointing out they must be stupid, not me.
I posted the price list so it's not unrealistic it reality.
912 that has been flying, sorry there are not enough customers who want a 912 to be more or enough for you to feel Nicolas can offer them for sale or whatever you mean? I gave you the actual "Pinned down MAX price" put together what do you require? In the States you cannot even buy that higher priced put together G1sb you have to buy the lower priced kit so it's even cheaper than what I quoted you!!!

I do not set the prices, competition often required others to lower their that's when the customer wins Vance, I know you know this!!! I think you are grumpy!!

I never said they were even the same ride only the same engine!!!!

Finally I can use this feedback buddy and will change "In my opinion you are creating false pricing expectations when you are quoting people $30,000 and a G1sa 912 actually costs $42,000."

I will quote 45K (more that it will cost if put together ready to fly with all the options and shipping) and explain it can cost much less! Thank you for that!

As to a used 6K Lyc with 1500 hours left vs a 912 for me personally with all the time in Lyc I trust the used Lyc and perceive it to be the more dependable than a new Rotax 912. Here I do understand and we just totally disagree, but I am way basis so please forgive me but I will promote them over all of the Rotax based on 30+ years of trouble free flying.

I'll let everyone know the final cost as we go but so far it's 36K for PRA 31's trainer. Your speculation is not needed; I posted the price list so you could figure it out yourself and prove me wrong!

Also I'm not sorry for answering your questions or trying to provide the United States with a low priced stable and dependable gyroplanes!
 
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Resasi

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Hi John, that link has me worried, had completely forgotten Nicolas had in fact posted that and I had seen it. Hmm absent mindedness, not a good sign.

It is always the case that compromise has to be considered and in this case it would seem agility for stability speed and possibly economy in the cruise.

This was another engine that might be worth watching. It is new, not very good looking, in fact rather ugly but a lot of off the shelf parts and designed to be simple safe and economic. I think it has a ways to go but would like to see what the price is going to be.

http://www.d-motor.eu/nl/home-1.htm

912is probably around 63Kg and as fuel efficient
 

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