Is there really a Gas Shortage?

Hi Angelo!
I hope you realize I agree with you totally. Every house and boat I’ve owned since the 80’s has met max capacity with solar cells on a sunny day. But I do have toys that I should give up, but l also would have much less fun living. Life would seem longer perhaps without playing on weekends with my toys. One reason for me flying, sailplanes, parasail’s, hang gliders, ultralights, and now gyro’s are so I can still fly the same amount but save the fuel for my kids and you.

It's just I've been an accountant for so long I have seen even the best intentioned people change once they become (well off).

I’m afraid that the only thing the tree-huggers policies are correct about is that the price of fuel is the only thing that will keep the majority of us and the world as the working poor and is the only real way that people will give up a lifestyle most the rest of the world is just beginning to dream of having too.

Instead of the world citizens going backwards in enjoying life we can conserve but we should have built nuclear power stations long ago. Then we could easily be using the same systems heat to also extract mass qualities of hydrogen from water and be fueling everything with water by now while not using oil for same.

I work in the bleeding edge of technology in several fields and I believe we/ it will solve the problem especially as fuel costs rise.

We each need to do all we can. This means call your congressman, and tell them if other countries can drill and produce nuclear power SAFETLY so can we!!!!!!!!

Nuclear is a big part of the answer for electricity and mass production of hydrogen (from water) with technology that exists today.

It's stupid to be charging electric cars with oil burning power stations?
 
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How about this idea.
Have the government force us to put solar cells on every roof in the sun belt and loan us the money. Buy them in mass to save even more. Then have the utilities companies collect along with their bill for power if any and pay the government back over 30 years.

Instant solar power grid at about the same cost we are paying now per month.

But all we do in the US is say republican solutions are for greedy reasons and the Dem's want us all walking and living in cabins, with personal powered flight being totally illegal!

No gyro's either that's just for fun, what a waste of fuel?

PS:
One man's idea of waste may be another's reason or dream for living!!!!
 
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All_In said:
How about this idea.
Have the government force us to put solar cells on every roof in the sun belt and loan us the money. Buy them in mass to save even more. Then have the utilities companies collect along with their bill for power if any and pay the government back over 30 years.
Click to expand...

That is all we need, more government laws telling us what to do by a bunch of Bloviating politicians that can't even balance their own checkbooks. :)

I checked on solar.....and solar would cost me the same over the next 30 years as I am paying right now for electricity.
There is no cost benifit. I mean I could feel all green and stuff, But Paying money to the government to absolve me from the guilt of being an American is not something I care to participate in.
America id great because if you work hard and become successful, then you can live the lifestyle that you choose.
Can you imagine the government mandating the size vehicle you could own?
A family of six would have to take 2 cars instead of one big one.
That would save nothing.
I currently own seven cars, 4 motorcycles 2 aircraft, and 2 diesel tractors,
But I only use one at a time.
I don't need the gov to tell me that I can or cannot own what I have worked for, and paid for with what they have left me after taxes.
Environmental responsibility is a good thing, but, more Al Gores------we do not need.
 
Energy, Energy, Energy

Energy, Energy, Energy

Well, if it were up to me, the first thing I would do is commence with the building of nuclear power plants. They are now (and have been) safe, reliable source of energy. Solar is a great idea, but needs to be done on a national basis. New homes ought to be built with the panels as part of the design, as well as new wharehouses, skyscrapers, etc. Anyplace that gets great sunshine should be considered. Amoratize the cost into the project, and have the government give a small rebate for doing so, and I believe it would be profitable.

That would help to take care (in part) of energy for the stationary needs of the US, and now for the mobile needs. Lets face it, we need fuel, and something that provides a decent amount of "bang" in the tanks. Let's NOT put all our eggs in one basket. We need to diversify our sources. US oil, either from the ground, or grown (algae oil) could be 1 leg. The experiments with this source look very promising and some companies say that it should be able to produce algae oil for $40-50 a barrel. Ethanol is a waste - it takes more energy to produce than use, and raises food prices. The 2nd leg would be hydrogen powered vehicles. Totally renewable source there. The third leg could be electric power. Stored energy from the nuclear power plants in our electric cars.

A big part of this is to utilize this power properly. For those who can't yet afford to upgrade to any new form of transportation could use the oil (also used for air transportation, including gyros :) ) cities and towns could start with the electric or hydrogen to power city vehicles. 3 legs to rely on - the triad. The triad was a concept used in the military (and still is) for 3 legs of defense. Well, we need to defend ourselves from being held hostage to forign powers and the oil from their countries.

Just my thought.

Terry
 
How about this idea...Have the government force us...

John, I consider it a tragedy that so many people can jump to this as an easy "fix" for problems. If I decide I like the color orange, should the government force you to paint your house orange? We're supposed to have freedom to make these choices.

The law of supply/demand/price is a stable system which rewards those who think ahead and are dilligent, and punishes those who don't and aren't.

The beauty of capitalism is that it harnesses human nature. How ironic that when millions of people act in their own self-interest, and are left the freedom to create and price products as they see fit, it creates a system in which lazy or greedy sellers lose, as consumers choose to buy from sellers who price fairly.

The only legitimate role for government in all this is to force people who create pollution to pay to clean it up. That will make dirty forms of energy creation more expensive, and hasten the day when the clean alternatives become competitive.
 
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Lighten up guys, poor choice of words “force:” and it was at least a solution off the top of my head that would work in the shortest time possible. The main reason I’m an independent is because I’m more of a libertarian but understand capitalism as an extension of the laws of nature with it's adaptive power mentioned. I would never really force anyone. I would provide incentives to stop using fossil fuels to produce electricity when solar cost the same or even less at these oil prices. I just wish to reduce the cost of fuel so you can all afford to drive and fly rotorcraft longer. Which is why I don’t have a clue of the gilt rational when it’s so illogical to keep burning oil to create electricity which drives up the cost of your fuel. I'm missing something?

IMHO: Why don't we have it today? Most homeowners can’t afford the 30 to 50K and many don’t even have the knowledge to make an intelligent decision or the credit. Couple that with little desire to be good stewards of the world either as express by some here, and we got nothing happening for 10 to 20 years to be really cost effective. Can we really wait?

Seems at least interest free loans would be in order? Or to add to the solution instead of just saying no use Paul’s idea and we will tax the user’s of oil burring power plants making their utility bills twice as expense as solar for selecting not to change?

Then your right the market would force people to change in a time frame that will make a real difference in your lifetime.
 
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John, this spike in oil prices has been too brief to change anyone's long-term plans. It will have to last long enough to convince investors that putting money into increased production of solar energy components pencils out. (And I think it will.)

We'll reach a tipping point in this. At some point, solar energy will become a volume commodity, the prices of the parts will drop, and we'll be off to the races. Until then, forcing solar into a market that's not ready has more downside than up.
 
All_In said:
Lighten up guys, poor choice of words “force:” and it was at least a solution off the top of my head that would work in the shortest time possible. The main reason I’m an independent is because I’m more of a libertarian but understand capitalism as an extension of the laws of nature with it's adaptive power mentioned. I would never really force anyone. I would provide incentives to stop using fossil fuels to produce electricity when solar cost the same or even less at these oil prices. I just wish to reduce the cost of fuel so you can all afford to drive and fly rotorcraft longer. Which is why I don’t have a clue of the gilt rational when it’s so illogical to keep burning oil to create electricity which drives up the cost of your fuel. I'm missing something?

IMHO: Why don't we have it today? Most homeowners can’t afford the 30 to 50K and many don’t even have the knowledge to make an intelligent decision or the credit. Couple that with little desire to be good stewards of the world either as express by some here, and we got nothing happening for 10 to 20 years to be really cost effective. Can we really wait?

Seems at least interest free loans would be in order? Or to add to the solution instead of just saying no use Paul’s idea and we will tax the user’s of oil burring power plants making their utility bills twice as expense as solar for selecting not to change?

Then your right the market would force people to change in a time frame that will make a real difference in your lifetime.
Click to expand...

John, you said "Seems at least interest free loans would be in order?" Three problems with this idea. (1) I would drive up the cost of loans for other purchases. (2) Once again you are putting the government in the control of personal purchases. Looking at the track of government I am convinced they would screw it up. (3) Such a system would increase the national debt. Remember there is no such thing as a free lunch.

I agree with Scott and Paul keep the government out of our lives.

I been watching the series on Greenburg, Ks. They said it will cost at least 30% more to rebuild city government building with their "LEED Platinum level standards" over the cost of standard building standards. With their statement about how little the city government has to spend I'm not sure this is the best use for limited resource.

Many of the ideas they showed has limited experience in the real world and many haven't been outside the lab. I have to wonder how many of these new concepts will really save money and how many will be shown as a total waste.

You talk about 30-50K for convert to another form of electricity. OK my house is paid off (valued at $100K) and I'm 63 years old. Why would I invest $30-50K on something I won't even get a return on my investment in the time I have last.

Same thing for our vehicles. We drive less than 5,000 miles per year. Why would I go out and buy new vehicles so I could save maybe $100-200.

You tell me if I'm being a good steward of my money. BTW I'm on fixed income I don't have a bunch of extra dollars laying around.

As Scott said "more Al Gores------we do not need."


Leon
(kc0iv)
 
Why cut back on US oil use everyway we can?

Why cut back on US oil use everyway we can?

There are so many reasons why you should, hard to know where to start. Better stick with just business/ economic ones as it much harder to argue with the logic of dollars and cents.

Significant assumptions:
1) There is NOT an infinite supply of oil but there is a MAJOR growing world demand that is barley meeting that demand today, and it’s going to get worse as India and China keep growing
2) Everything we buy must be delivered by ships, trains, trucks, and planes higher fuel transportation costs now and in the future will cost you more for everything the world buys and sells including food!!!
3) That using electricity produced from oil burning power stations when there is an alternative method that cost the same or less is wasting oil that we can never get back thus pushing all of us into much higher fuel costs today and in the future.
===
There are two futures available to us an easy way (with a plan) or the hard way!!

If you are on a fixed income you must have noticed the effects of ‘Market forces’ the hard way already by cutting back on your driving at least? How do you like the do nothing approach so far? This is also a glimpse into the future when a major portion of the world can afford a house and several cars. If you haven’t traveled the world lately it coming sooner than you think.

As pointed out the market will eventually force most to buy a better mileage car or sell your car because you can’t afford gas anymore as food cost so much more to deliver in your future world.
If we all keep doing nothing one day we will all understand why we should have done something.

Also I was way off on my estimates of the cost, It’s gone way down. Just starting to investigate fact from fiction but check out this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClLKVs9oSxE&eurl=https://www.nanosolar.com/blog3/

If this turns out to be true then they have done it! $1.00 a watt and they say they are selling them now= the same as coal (coal is much cheaper than oil) so it beats oil burning hands down today and you would save money then on a monthly basis.

So why switch to solar?
1) You reduce the demand on oil and it’s price now and in the future = lower cost of living for you personally.
2) To get rid of the man and become independent!
3) If the cost is really $1 a watt then it’s way cheaper than oil and is the same as coal.
4) Why then haven’t the rest of you all switched already? I’m going to check the actually installed prices and get back to you. But your argument is looking worse to me all the time? This may be actually cheaper than what you are paying now for power.


But my main reason is the oil and the future demand for same!!!!! I don't care except for my children and 11 soon to be 13 grandchildren as I have always found a way to start a new business to pay for my toys, fuel, hobbies, and family trips. But those not doing the same might wish to rethink waiting for someone to do it for us and doing nothing while you are waiting for it all to work out?

PS:
The value of your house should go up as your selling them a power station too.
 
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John !

You got it right on the dot ! This is the best way for a "soft change".

Nuclear Power: 30 years ago I was against it, but technology has improved vastly. Nowadays Nuclear Power should be a fixed part in every countries energy planning and development.

Scottessex:

As long everything runs fine people reject laws that limit their "freedom" to waste energy, although THESE laws would make sense. But once everything gets out of the lane the same people cry the government to do something....

Somehow a high percentage of the people all over the world behave like stupid little children that didn´t learn their lessons.........

Angelo
 
Angelo, I do my part to save energy, I carpool, I drive a car that gets 30 mpg, with 2 people that is 60 mpg seat miles.
I get what I need on the way home while passing through town, once I am home we do not go back out, we will wait until the next day when we pass through town.
All my cars are paid for, and have been since the day I bought them. I use an electric golf cart here on the property extensively. They do not make an electric lawn mower that will cut 15 acres in a mater of hours. So diesel works there.
My point was that we do not need new laws, what we need is the gov to get the hell out of the way and quit putting restrictions on nuclear power, drilling for oil, types of cars that get imported, etc.
I would like to have an electric car, but right now I can buy lots of gas for my paid for car compared to the cost outlay for a new electric car. Plus the electric car would only get me to work, and be dead for the trip home, unless I bought a $50k high zoot car.
If I had unlimited funds, I would go full solar, and get off the grid.....
There has to be a way to run a car off the methane available from your own septic tank, but I do not have the time or the money to pursue this project.

I never have, nor ever will look to, or ask the government for help or want them to "fix" anything. History has showed us that everything that the government gets involved in they screw up in a bad way.

We need more free market solutions, And I do not feel guilty for being an American.
 
All_In said:
But my main reason is the oil and the future demand for same!!!!! I don't care except for my children and 11 soon to be 13 grandchildren as I have always found a way to start a new business to pay for my toys, fuel, hobbies, and family trips. But those not doing the same might wish to rethink waiting for someone to do it for us and doing nothing while you are waiting for it all to work out?
Click to expand...

I don't want to insult you but I most likely will. Your saying I should reduce my demands for energy, in this case oil, so there will be enough oil for your use on secondary needs (fuel, hobbies, and family trips). Well to me my trips to the store and the doctor's office is more important than you being able to fly your plane or gyro or take a family trip. That by friend is the Al Gore approach. Let everybody else cut back so he can maintain his standard of living.

As to electric needs. I question the dollar a watt. Every site I have seen gives a number of around $5-5.50 per watt for a system. I just can't see 5 time reduction in price. Secondly, in my area electrical power uses coal not oil.

Another problems with solar is enough roof space for the solar panels. Another problem is how many solar days are available. Looking at your area vs my area your solar days is about twice that of mine. And that doesn't include ice and snow damage to solar panels. I am in the process of replacing the roof right now because of an ice storm damage. Second time in 12 years.

Should they have built and build more Nuclear Power by all means. However, there appears to be a problem of where to store the spent rods. Yucca Mountain appears to not be the best location. In addition you have the transportation problem. Just the other day a train carrying spent rods had to be stopped near here because the rail cars were in danger of tipping over. In fact one car of the train jumped the track. Thankfully, it wasn't one of the spent rod cars and the train was in a slow speed zone.

When you research Yucca Mountain you will find it wasn't selected because it was the best location but because of politics.

Then look at wind power. Good idea. This area is one of the best area in the US. Why isn't there wind powered generator all over Kansas? Thanks to the hug-a-tree bunch they have tied up wind powered generator for years now. With no end in sight of their lawsuits some of which as been in court for 10 years.

Just one more little thing about energy demands. One of the big things right now is to switch from incandescent light bulb to fluorescent light bulbs. Great idea? From the web site: https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls However, what they don't say how to dispose of those fluorescent light bulbs. In my area, and I suspect in most area, it is illegal to dispose of fluorescent light bulbs in the trash. The nearest collection facility for me would be a 20 mile round trip. The other option is wait 6 months for the city to to pick these up. Just one more area where the government looks at one area and not the whole picture.

In there an answer to the energy needs? I'm sure there will be but I don't believe we have the answer yet. What works in one area of the country won't work in other parts of the country.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 
Hi Scott
I can’t believe I’m going to defend government programs in any way, but looks like I need to put some perspective on what government can successfully do for us.

Have you heard of student loans, disaster loans? Or have you heard of the small business loans backed by our government. If not these are examples of successful government programs. The SBA loans are available to any citizen to start or expand a business they guarantee the loans for just about any reasonable idea. It works, and it has helped make more poor Americans rich than any other program I know of. Only valid complaint I had heard is it takes to long and requires too much paper work. But the paper work is design to not throw money away so it’s not valid either.

There are few things we really need the government to do one is central planning. Like energy and your neighborhoods, cities, streets, and roads, without the local government zoning laws you could be living next to cardboard houses and many open cesspools, disease, etc. You build your estate and find over time your are surrounded by filth and squarer and your property worth very little. The open market approach just doesn't work well in these area's.

I don’t like the government involved in much, but they could loan us the money and solve this problem as I have suggested very quickly for us.

Hi Leon!

Really hard to insult me I'm too stupid to care as I though we were just sharing what we both know. I've been wrong before. Once? Hehehe
Haven’t let opinions bothers me in years. If you didn’t point it out I wouldn’t have even noticed. (Especially when it true!!! One plane cost me $2000.00 per hour now in fuel to fly!)

Leon think you missed the part of the plan that said SUN BELT like So Ca. If you're not in the sun or wind belt then the program I was suggesting wasn't for your part of the country and explains why you haven't done it or really researched it, also. This lets you off the hook.

Nuclear, having investigated the methods myself I have a lot of trouble with your reason for stopping it. Your saying the French can and have done it safely but the US is to backward and behind in technology to do the same for the last 30 years?

Yucca Mountain has no real problems, only politicians who have either lied to scare you into voting for there side (seems to be working too) or are truly very stupid men and woman or haven't done any real research themselves and believes their own crap they are spewing.

I agree with your idea for wind power now we need a plan to loan folks and cities the money so they can afford to save money and oil today, not tomorrow!!

"What works in one area of the country won't work in other parts of the country!"
See we agree on something we are already closer to a solution!!!
 
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I planted 3 shrubs and 2 annuals yesterday, so then I went and burned about 5 gallons of dead dinosaurs in the gyro, so I'm calling that even. :)

You know, Al Gore happens to own a company that sells carbon credits...............
If anyone feels guilty, about your carbon footprint, send me some cash for a carbon credit, and I will put your name tag on one of my trees here on my property. I'll even send you a picture of your tree. You can pick hardwood or pine.
It will only cost you $99.95 for the hardwood and $79.95 for the pine, and you will get a nice certificate and an 8X10 glossy photo. For an extra $25 I will take an additional aerial photo of your tree.
Boy, I feel better about being green already, ain't capitalism great!? :D
 
Ostentatiousness is simply a part of human nature. For one African tribe, wealth was displayed as brass rings around a woman’s neck. Their necks would become so elongated they couldn’t hold their heads up when the rings were removed.

Our equivalent of brass rings is 6,000 square foot houses, 6,000 lb. automobiles and boats parked in the front yard with a pair of 225 HP outboard engines. And debt up to our eyeballs, the analogue of an elongated neck.

The energy imbalance will only be solved by market forces.

The Europeans and Japanese have always had high fuel prices. They responded with K class cars (less than 660cc) and smaller houses. In Japan with its astronomical land prices, people have learned to live quite comfortably in a 500-1,000 square foot house with a front lawn, if any, that can be mown with household scissors.

Speaking of little-bitty cars:
 

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I think there is a better solution. We need oil and they need food so we jack the price of wheat and grains up to 130 + dollars a bushel. This way we all win and they will see how it feels to have inflated prices.

Just a thought.
 
Brilliant idea, Thom. But do you think we could get the Indians and Chinese, each of whom grows more wheat than the US and who are as anxious to get their hands on Middle Eastern oil as we are to go along with your scheme?

How about the Russians, the Canadians, the Turks, the Argentines, the Australians, the French and the British, each of whom is a major producer of wheat?

Besides, Middle Eastern diets lean more toward rice than toward wheat and most of the World’s rice is grown in Southeastern Asia.

There is a finite supply of oil and demand keeps growing. The law of supply and demand sets the price of everything.

There isn’t much demand for used Hummers and giant SUVs right now and they’re going for firesale prices. I think you ought to stock up and await the return of $1/gallon gas.
 
The demand that we all cut back is a valid one.

However since it takes a long time to reach a particular point in the consumption of any product, that cut back should be in proportion, though not necessarily equal to, the ramping up of that demand, otherwise equilibrium is disturbed and chaos results.

Cutting demand suddenly on anything does have a ripple effect on a huge network of people and products who grow/manufacture/market/sell/utilise the widget that is suddenly not wanted/or cannot be used anymore.
 
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