Interested in a Rotax alternative?
- Thread starter ckurz7000
- Start date
adrian clince
Newbie
they look like a good engine - similar hp and$$$ range to the rotax but revs alot lower 2.2ltr - it will be quite a few years before id get my hands on one
The big difference is that the MW-22 is a modern engine with fuel injection, fully water cooled, an integrated lubrication system, minimal external hosing, a CAN bus interface for all engine data, with reduction drive, etc., etc. It is bolt-on compatible with the Rotax 914 engine mount and you get it from 95 - 150 (turbo) hp. And it costs a smidgeon less than the Rotax 914.
Friends of mine have been to Italy and seen it running first hand. They spent a day with the people from MW and the engine and came off very impressed.
Essentially, you get a great new engine that has more power and weighs the same as the Rotax 914 (79 kg) for a bit (not much) less money. Over time, I believe, competition will cause prices to drop.
I see a silver line on the horizon...
-- Chris.
scottessex
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Good to see some competition! Good!
Abid
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If some of you guys really don't want to pay Rotax 914 prices but want a 120 HP engine, I have a similar kit for turboing 912 80 HP engine that Zen1 uses for around $4500 plus shipping (plus tax if Florida delivery)
https://store.silverlightaviation.c...ax-Engine-80Hp-p/marc-kitturbo-rotax-80hp.htm
I will never claim that its as reliable as a stock Rotax 914UL but seems like it works and a very similar kit is what is used by Zen1 with same Turbo
https://store.silverlightaviation.c...ax-Engine-80Hp-p/marc-kitturbo-rotax-80hp.htm
I will never claim that its as reliable as a stock Rotax 914UL but seems like it works and a very similar kit is what is used by Zen1 with same Turbo
stupidceleb
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Chris, is this engine going into the Arrow Copter?
Fly Army
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A wet sump that's interesting. The 150hp flavor appears to weigh pretty close to what a 914 weighs. I'd like to see them accumulate some operational time though before I'd jump in and get one. Also a North American distributor would be a requirement for me as well.
Wouldn't be certifiable. But you can do anything in the Experimental arena.
-- Chris.
hjajr
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If you dont mind the weight get you a EA 81 subaru with dual carbs stock engine and put a redrive on it. I had one and it flew great and had more power than i needed. 100HP Stock. Iv heard that they last longer than a aircraft engine . I heard that from the New Zeland gyro boys that fly them at 6000 and 6500 RPM's also.
Phenix5
Junior Member
Hi Chris,
I´ve been following the development of the MW engine. Obviously they haven´t invented anything but it features many aspects that are extremely interesting in comparison to Rotax options (weight, high c.c., low rpm, water cooling, fuek injection,etc.). They also offer a wide range of power outputs for different types of aircraft and performance.
It sounds strange and sad that it´s not certifiable. I don´t know what it takes to certify an engine like this (I guess a lot of money, time, patience and faith). As far as I know, Rotax engines for ultralights are not factory certified unless you pay over 6000 euros more on to their already boosted prices. Or is it that aviation authorities accept Rotax for it´s over 2 million operating hours and it´s wideworld sales. In that way, it will be impossible for any reliable competitor to break in the market and also allow for prices to come down to a reasonable level, like you mention.
On the other hand, the new German regulation for 560 kg MTOW for gyros brings out another question. Do German aviation authorities really believe you can operate a gyro in this category at full MTOW, on a high elevation field, grass runway, in a confined area surrounded by mountains, no wind and on a hot summer day? Take-off roll and climb rate in these conditions will be a poem with the 914. You will need more than the limited turbo boost as per Rotax instructions to get safely out of that airfield!
If Rotax was to produce engines similar to the MW, probably people wouldn´t mind paying just a bit more to get one but it´s not happening and it´s not going to happen. So again I say it´s sad not to be able to access new alternatives, particularily in the gyro category, where power is such an important thing.
Shouldn´t it be wisier to increase MTOW on any category also opening the door to alternative and more powerful engines allowing easy and relatively troublefree certifications?
It seems we´ll just have to stick onto our good old 914´s to marginally fly our aircraft in heavier conditions and wait until the poor MW guys have accomplished over 2 million operating hours!
regards,
Carlos
I´ve been following the development of the MW engine. Obviously they haven´t invented anything but it features many aspects that are extremely interesting in comparison to Rotax options (weight, high c.c., low rpm, water cooling, fuek injection,etc.). They also offer a wide range of power outputs for different types of aircraft and performance.
It sounds strange and sad that it´s not certifiable. I don´t know what it takes to certify an engine like this (I guess a lot of money, time, patience and faith). As far as I know, Rotax engines for ultralights are not factory certified unless you pay over 6000 euros more on to their already boosted prices. Or is it that aviation authorities accept Rotax for it´s over 2 million operating hours and it´s wideworld sales. In that way, it will be impossible for any reliable competitor to break in the market and also allow for prices to come down to a reasonable level, like you mention.
On the other hand, the new German regulation for 560 kg MTOW for gyros brings out another question. Do German aviation authorities really believe you can operate a gyro in this category at full MTOW, on a high elevation field, grass runway, in a confined area surrounded by mountains, no wind and on a hot summer day? Take-off roll and climb rate in these conditions will be a poem with the 914. You will need more than the limited turbo boost as per Rotax instructions to get safely out of that airfield!
If Rotax was to produce engines similar to the MW, probably people wouldn´t mind paying just a bit more to get one but it´s not happening and it´s not going to happen. So again I say it´s sad not to be able to access new alternatives, particularily in the gyro category, where power is such an important thing.
Shouldn´t it be wisier to increase MTOW on any category also opening the door to alternative and more powerful engines allowing easy and relatively troublefree certifications?
It seems we´ll just have to stick onto our good old 914´s to marginally fly our aircraft in heavier conditions and wait until the poor MW guys have accomplished over 2 million operating hours!
regards,
Carlos
birdy
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The big difference is that the MW-22 is a modern engine with fuel injection, fully water cooled, an integrated lubrication system,
Modern???
Id never use fuel ingection out ere.
Aircooled barrels are a life saver if you happen to blow the water out. [ done 3 mins of flyn without a drop of water in the 912, twice. A water cooled barrel wouldnt last 20 seconds.]
Wots rong with a remote sump? Its good for fine tuneing your COG.
Modern???
Id never use fuel ingection out ere.
Aircooled barrels are a life saver if you happen to blow the water out. [ done 3 mins of flyn without a drop of water in the 912, twice. A water cooled barrel wouldnt last 20 seconds.]
Wots rong with a remote sump? Its good for fine tuneing your COG.
the door is equally wide open for any engine. It's just hard to demonstrate reliability and safety to a level that's acceptable to the authorities. Either it takes a lot of money or a lot of time. Some would say both.
-- Chris.
Not at all.
The RTS egine by Aviation Artur Trendak from Poland,
over 100 delivered and flying on gyroplanes around the World,
9 of them in the US, is proven and available immediately.
It has maybe not 200 million, but probably over 20 000 for sure,
without major issue.
It performs continuous 125hp, can bee boosted
for few minutes to 150hp.
The ZEN1 is now to be certified in Poland for 560kg MTOW.
The RTS engine is flying at 600 MTOW in Denver without any trouble.
Gyro_Kai
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Hello Phenix5,
the regulations for engines are not that difficult to meet:
-----------
BUT 903 Engine
The entire drive system must run in a 10 hours continuous operation. Firstly the engine must run for 8 hours with 75% of the maximum continuous power followed by
• 10 start ups and shut downs, start up and 5min at idle power
• 5 min max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm.)
• 5 min. max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm)
• 15 min. at 75 % max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm)
• 15 min. at max power
• Shut down the engine and cool down
• Repeat the above procedure.
No malfunctions must occur on any part of the power drive system and the fuselage, influencing the safe operation
There must be no harmful vibration and no part of the drive system or the cabin must take any damage.
the regulations for engines are not that difficult to meet:
-----------
BUT 903 Engine
The entire drive system must run in a 10 hours continuous operation. Firstly the engine must run for 8 hours with 75% of the maximum continuous power followed by
• 10 start ups and shut downs, start up and 5min at idle power
• 5 min max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm.)
• 5 min. max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm)
• 15 min. at 75 % max. power
• 5 min. cooling run (idle rpm)
• 15 min. at max power
• Shut down the engine and cool down
• Repeat the above procedure.
No malfunctions must occur on any part of the power drive system and the fuselage, influencing the safe operation
There must be no harmful vibration and no part of the drive system or the cabin must take any damage.
birdy
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Whatever rocks your boat.
Also heavier, thirstier and unproven.
But ill wait for you to clock a coupla thousand hours on it Chris, maybe then....... .
Also heavier, thirstier and unproven.
But ill wait for you to clock a coupla thousand hours on it Chris, maybe then....... .
Phenix5
Junior Member
To Paul:
Yes, it sounds good about the RST engine but are these powerplants available for the general public or exclusive for Trendak´s use? Also, I have concerns about the original Rotax warranty on the non factory mods. Does the supplier cover them?
To Kai:
Thanks for the info. At least it´s an open possibility and doesn´t seem to take that much time or money. I presume any new engine manufacturer wouldn´t mind going thru this process if it´s eventually going to generate more sales. Also, I believe these type of tests should have already been evaluated by the manufacturer prior to start their marekting promotion. In the case of MW, their webpage does specify intensive testing of the engine.
Carlos
Yes, it sounds good about the RST engine but are these powerplants available for the general public or exclusive for Trendak´s use? Also, I have concerns about the original Rotax warranty on the non factory mods. Does the supplier cover them?
To Kai:
Thanks for the info. At least it´s an open possibility and doesn´t seem to take that much time or money. I presume any new engine manufacturer wouldn´t mind going thru this process if it´s eventually going to generate more sales. Also, I believe these type of tests should have already been evaluated by the manufacturer prior to start their marekting promotion. In the case of MW, their webpage does specify intensive testing of the engine.
Carlos
Carlos,
I think, Artur can deliver to you and cover the warranty himself.
Just contact Zenon here on the forum or their contact page
on www.autogyro.eu
Also heavier, thirstier and unproven.
But ill wait for you to clock a coupla thousand hours on it Chris, maybe then....... .
Not heavier.
Not thirstier.
Definitely unproven as of yet.
But someone must have taken the first ride in a train, too. Or else everybody would still be walking around on foot. Whether you ride in front of an MW-22 doesn't make a bit of difference to me. I just hope that enough people will so that we can see whether it is indeed comparable in reliability to a Rotax.
-- Chris.
