Instrument panel of my M-24

WaspAir

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What pilot rating would be required to operate your gyro in IMC under paragraph 24 of your operating limitations?

FAA currently issues instrument ratings only for airplane, helicopter, and powered lift. Decades ago there was an ATP-gyro rating but it was deleted from the regs (according to rumor, on a petition from Don Farrington). Glider pilots are specifically permitted to fly IFR (e.g., thermal up beyond cloud base in uncontrolled airspace out west) on the basis of a combination of a glider rating and an airplane instrument rating under 61.3(e)(3), and airship IFR privileges come with the Commercial LTA-airship rating under 61.3(e)(4) but gyros are not mentioned in those regs. What/where is the authorization to operate a gyro in IMC?
 
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WaspAir

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By the way, I might move, but would never delete, a compass from my panel. They are small, simple, cheap, and terribly reliable (at least in the lower 48 states, once you know their quirks). For me, that's instrument number 2 on the list of simple trustworthy things (the yaw string is number 1).
 
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What pilot rating would be required to operate your gyro in IMC under paragraph 24 of your operating limitations?
I don't know. I'm going to get Sport Pilot license and have no plans , desire or need to fly in IMC ever.
 
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WaspAir

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I don't know. I'm going to get Sport Pilot license and have no plans , desire or need to fly in IMC ever.
That's a perfectly reasonable, sensible, and longevity-enhancing attitude that I whole-heartedly endorse.
I'm just seriously curious as to why they would put that paragraph in the operating limitations when FAR 61.3(e) seems to prohibit using it.
 
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That's a perfectly reasonable, sensible, and longevity-enhancing attitude that I whole-heartedly endorse.
I'm just seriously curious as to why they would put that paragraph in the operating limitations when FAR 61.3(e) seems to prohibit using it.
Thanks!
When government is involved I'm not surprised by anything.
 

DavePA11

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You may want a compass if the unit charging the smart pads stops working when you fly longer cross countries. I had this happen once on a trip.

Oh I just remembered that I pull out my smart phone and started Foreflight up... Damn sectionals were in the back storage compartment and unreachable...
 
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DavePA11, I just finished over 1300 nm cross country trip (took 2 days) and did not have a need to look at the compass even once.
BTW, iPhone, iPad and iPad-mini, which I had onboard, all have much more accurate integrated compasses, then mechanical dinosaur installed by the factory, which you see on the picture on top of dashboard.
 
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WaspAir

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An electronic device (including those with Hall effect sensors, and those deriving heading information from GPS-measured motion) should not be inherently more accurate than a than a properly installed and maintained magnetic compass. It may be more stable in its displayed reading (not showing fluctuations from northerly turning error, etc.) making it look more user-friendly, but that's not the same thing as accuracy.

Perhaps you need to "swing" the compass (a good thing to do now and then) or relocate wiring near it.
 

j bird

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My experimental operating limitations are, "Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records".
 
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An electronic device (including those with Hall effect sensors, and those deriving heading information from GPS-measured motion) should not be inherently more accurate than a than a properly installed and maintained magnetic compass.
I stand corrected, but the accuracy of the compass does not matter , there are so many visual landmarks (mountains, lakes, interstate highways. etc) in my home state that I fail to see the situation in which I might ever need a compass onboard.
Not interested in a long cross country trips at all, all my flights will be within 100-150 miles from home airport.
 

WHUBBS

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I have had four Gyroplanes inspected by the same DAR over the past few years and each time he called me by phone before coming to my location 70 miles , and said I must have a compass, any size or type or price in the gyro and a compass card but the card did not have to be filled out. Go figure. I wanted a nice compass anyway so this did not bother me, also I wanted to pass the inspection. Why would a person not want a compass, I have had my electrical system go out completely a few times over the many years and I used the compass to get back to civilization.
 
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DAR ... said I must have a compass,
I guess your DAR need to be educated about the rules he is enforcing.

Why would a person not want a compass,
Why would a person want a thing of no use to that person?


I have had my electrical system go out completely a few times over the many years and I used the compass to get back to civilization.
I have onboard iPad, mini-iPad, iPhone and Samsung A10 phone. All of them have integrated batteries, which last much longer, than I can fly on one tank of gas. All of them (except A10, which has other nav soft) have installed Garmin Pilot app and Compass app, as well as other navigational software.
Also, Rotax 915 is fuel injected engine with electronic ignition, so if both of its generators are failed, engine will be dead too, thus I see no use of compass "to get back to civilization" under such circumstances.
Can you provide a realistic scenario in which I would really benefit from having aboard a magnetic compass of "any size or type or price " ?
 
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PW_Plack

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I'm just seriously curious as to why they would put that paragraph in the operating limitations when FAR 61.3(e) seems to prohibit using it.
Perhaps it's because operating limitations never expire, and may outlive any given regulation.

I've heard the FAA's Rotorcraft Directorate is of the opinion that a gyroplane cannot be a stable enough platform to be a good candidate for operation in instrument conditions. Having seen a couple Cavalons with autopilot, perhaps that reg will one day change, and the operating limitations will appear to have been ahead of their time.

I have onboard iPad, mini-iPad, iPhone and Samsung A10 phone...Can you provide a realistic scenario in which I would really benefit from having aboard a magnetic compass of "any size or type or price " ?
The obvious single point failure there would be either a missle threat or false alarm indicating same, in which case the GPS system is still subject to being shut down or intentionally distorted by the US Department of Defense. Laugh all you want, but in today's world, a hacker could create such a false alarm, and it would be an extremely cheap and effective attack on the country.
 
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The obvious single point failure there would be either a missle threat or false alarm indicating same, in which case the GPS system is still subject to being shut down
Yeah, on a long cross country over flats with overcast I agree, compass would help in case of GPS system shut-down. Wait... I do have 3 compasses onboard, all of them unaffected by GPS shut-down, that compasses are app Pro Compass 2 from Hunter Research (very good one, check it out) installed on ipads & iphone. So, no need for magnetic mechanical compass in case of GPS shut-down.
I'm not gonna fly long cross country over flats anyway. In my home state it is very easy to navigate using landmarks, simple pilotage.
 
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WaspAir

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A word of warning for those readers of this thread tempted to use a handheld electronic device as an airborne compass for navigation:
a properly installed fixed-mount magnetic compass instrument is "swung" with all the avionics on, so that fields from nearby equipment can be considered when the adjustments are made, and a compass card is provided for heading-based corrections (which can be large, and not in an easily predicted pattern). If you have a portable device instead, the readings can vary significantly depending upon how you hold it, what else is turned on, and where it is in the cockpit, and you likely won't have a reliable card reference (unless you mount the device and create a card for it).
 
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