Incident - Cavalon N518DT - Arizona

[Peterpilot]

Yes all fair comment Waspair, please accept my apologise for the over reaction. xx

Cavalon - I have a view on the why, its not at all universally shared but I still think the rationale I give stands. Personally if I were in the market for a Cavalon I would spend a year in an open sport type, get a couple of hundred hours under my belt and then transition. Flying is a beautiful activity so no need to rush or race, I have never seen a Cavalon flown well by a new[newish] pilot during the take off and/or landing phase.

Agreed. Bob Snyder taught me on the Cavalon and I knew I would need a lot more training to fly it comfortably - but high time pilots seem to figure out its particularities. Trying to get into an MTOSport if we can figure out this type certificate dilemma.

 

[Kevin_Richey]

With the excessively high rate of Cavalon accidents in the USA ... even the PRA ...IF we were to institute co-insurance plan(with an existing insurance company to cover the liability side)...IF we could get 100 members to initiate an initial hull coverage fund ...-even. @ 1/2 current hull rate -charged by insurance...just 2 Cavalon claims would wipe us out ...SO should we ask MORE for Cavalon owners to put into the pot ???? OR just offer 1/2 hull insurance/ higher deductible for these "high-risk" models????
Interesting ponderings ...& WHY has at least 1/3 of USA Cavalon fleet (maybe up to 1/2 ...many unreported incidents!) ...had serious accidents and lesser damage!????
Any good suggestions out there HOW to establish a PRA member-attracting insurance benefit ...WITHOUT being unfair?????

Auto insurance companies charge far higher insurance premiums for Corvettes & other high HP cars than they do for the vast majority of other makes/models of vehicles. They do the same for young, single, male drivers, @ the rate of double or more the rate for young, single females.

That is unfair to the safe driving males, but allowed w/out running against discrimination laws. When I became married in my early 20's, I was delighted to see my auto insurance costs dropped almost in half! When I moved out of a larger city to a suburb nearby, it dropped in half once again! Life insurance rates for males is similar.

Maybe go about liability & hull insurance a different way:
Consider asking the liability/hull aircraft insurance companies to insure a select group of safe owners of gyroplanes that haven't had claims & that have demonstrated safe flying practices. Ask for being covered by those who have flown for @ least a few years w/out mishap & exclude the largest make/model ones that have demonstrated huge claims. Membership in gyroplane-specific programs of instruction would demonstrate to the insurance companies the desire to remain accident & claims-free.

Exclude the owners of high rates of claims machines, just like the Corvette/high HP autos. Instead of excluding all gyroplane owners, keep out of the insurance pool the poor risks. Using their own insurance claim statistics, it's easy to separate the good risks vs. the bad ones. Yes, high deductibles & rates, but better than none available.

 

[500e]

I could not afford to insure the 500 with something like 500 hours unless my other partner was a high time pilot 5/6000 hours neither of us has damaged a machine even as a non claim basis
So I think the low hours high cost machine it going to attract a steep premium.
That's life

 

[MTO Flyer]

With the excessively high rate of Cavalon accidents in the USA ... even the PRA ...IF we were to institute co-insurance plan(with an existing insurance company to cover the liability side)...IF we could get 100 members to initiate an initial hull coverage fund ...-even. @ 1/2 current hull rate -charged by insurance...just 2 Cavalon claims would wipe us out ...SO should we ask MORE for Cavalon owners to put into the pot ???? OR just offer 1/2 hull insurance/ higher deductible for these "high-risk" models????
Interesting ponderings ...& WHY has at least 1/3 of USA Cavalon fleet (maybe up to 1/2 ...many unreported incidents!) ...had serious accidents and lesser damage!????
Any good suggestions out there HOW to establish a PRA member-attracting insurance benefit ...WITHOUT being unfair?????

It's not necessarily about being fair. There is a reason car insurance companies won't insure certain cars or charge much higher rates for certain cars.

 

[PJB]

Agreed. Bob Snyder taught me on the Cavalon and I knew I would need a lot more training to fly it comfortably - but high time pilots seem to figure out its particularities. Trying to get into an MTOSport if we can figure out this type certificate dilemma.

Speaking personally I'd prefer to stay in an open aircraft for this class, its more fun. AutoGyro have this obsession to sell their aircraft as competitor to fixed wing based upon price/speed and touring ability and a helicopter based upon take off and landing performance - and in all cases the gyroplane based on those metrics performs worse than both.

If they could over come this ridiculous notion and simply sell them as open cockpit fun with good vision, good control authority and a margin of safety in engine out scenarios, make them cheaper not more expensive you'd be winning. But £££$$$$ Cavalon is a dog to fly in truth compared to a fixed wing as a tourer and adding things like "auto pilot" and glass screen panels just adds more £££$$$$$££$$EUR for almost zero value add.

At some point these businesses go bust or they realise they are busy fools, very sadly its not good for those enjoying flying them.

 

[Rowdyflyer1903!]

Most of the Brits I've known were quicker to spot attempts at humor.

How can you tell?

 

[Abid]

Yes all fair comment Waspair, please accept my apologise for the over reaction. xx

Cavalon - I have a view on the why, its not at all universally shared but I still think the rationale I give stands. Personally if I were in the market for a Cavalon I would spend a year in an open sport type, get a couple of hundred hours under my belt and then transition. Flying is a beautiful activity so no need to rush or race, I have never seen a Cavalon flown well by a new[newish] pilot during the take off and/or landing phase.

I agree with that. Cavalon and some other enclosed gyroplanes are not the best first gyroplanes. Hey the accident stats speak for themselves. It is not that they are unsafe. It is that they are less forgiving in the hands of someone who makes small mistakes on every second turn.

 

[Abid]

Agreed. Bob Snyder taught me on the Cavalon and I knew I would need a lot more training to fly it comfortably - but high time pilots seem to figure out its particularities. Trying to get into an MTOSport if we can figure out this type certificate dilemma.

Get a ride in an AR-1. There are two in Virginia. One or two in North Carolina as well. Type certificate is nothing but a limiting factor on any maintenance or any change you may ever make. It is not like you can go aerial photography with it and charge for that. It is a Primary Category restricted type cert.

 

[Abid]

Speaking personally I'd prefer to stay in an open aircraft for this class, its more fun. AutoGyro have this obsession to sell their aircraft as competitor to fixed wing based upon price/speed and touring ability and a helicopter based upon take off and landing performance - and in all cases the gyroplane based on those metrics performs worse than both.

If they could over come this ridiculous notion and simply sell them as open cockpit fun with good vision, good control authority and a margin of safety in engine out scenarios, make them cheaper not more expensive you'd be winning. But £££$$$$ Cavalon is a dog to fly in truth compared to a fixed wing as a tourer and adding things like "auto pilot" and glass screen panels just adds more £££$$$$$££$$EUR for almost zero value add.

At some point these businesses go bust or they realise they are busy fools, very sadly its not good for those enjoying flying them.

Autopilots in gyroplanes ... people are ordering those along with Dynon HDX 10 inch dual screens. Whatever floats people's boats. They ought to just get a fixed wing spam can in my opinion but hey who am I to tell them. Completely kills the whole point of a gyroplane. You buy it because "you" want to fly it. Not because you want a driver driving you. Technically it can be done if you got $16000 extra itching around. Those big TV screens can be done also but at 90 knots cruise Dynon is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[PJB]

Get a ride in an AR-1. There are two in Virginia. One or two in North Carolina as well. Type certificate is nothing but a limiting factor on any maintenance or any change you may ever make. It is not like you can go aerial photography with it and charge for that. It is a Primary Category restricted type cert.

If I was in the US I would start with the American Ranger shop. Lets be honest this industry is tiny and Abid is super active, never shy's away and has the right thinking training wise. You go there and how can you really ever see a scenario where you'll be left on a limb?Performance wise it will be as good if not better and the service side in aviation is worth its weight in gold.

 

[N962GT]

The nose gear on a Cavalon is very difficult to inspect properly so it is my observation many pilots don’t.

Which brings up the point about the inability to easily/quickly pre-flight and inspect any fully enclosed gyro. Over and over again this pops up in conversations as the #1 concern of seasoned gyro pilots who like to see the guts of the thing before we get in and fly 'em.

But they sure do look pretty.

 

[ultracruiser41]

Which brings up the point about the inability to easily/quickly pre-flight and inspect any fully enclosed gyro. Over and over again this pops up in conversations as the #1 concern of seasoned gyro pilots who like to see the guts of the thing before we get in and fly 'em.

But they sure do look pretty.

Mines easy to inspect

 

[BUD ONEAL]

Abid what you say is true. Think about this. I’m saying that prerotator and take off procedure should changed and these accidents would be reduced significantly. I hate to bring up my old man again however, I can’t think of one of his students that ever flapped the blades on takeoff in such a manner that it destroyed the machine.

He would take them out in the two place and purposely let them flap the blades at low speed and teach them how to prevent it. In 20+ years of teaching I know not one of his students ever had an accident like these. His hydraulic prerotator allows you to prerotate with the stick back. Thus when he would deem you ready he would teach you how to start the takeoff roll with it engaged. Once the aircraft began to get light let go of the handle and few seconds your in the air nose down accelerating in ground affect. This type of take off enables you to take off with minimal ground speed.

I know you have it in your heart that this is all on the pilots because of a bias you have for older dudes and airplane pilots. I agree they are more prone to do stupid mistakes. I just think the aircraft and takeoff procedures could l be altered to be more forgiving of those mistakes. Dad had plenty of airplane pilots he converted as a CFI. They were not allowed to solo until he felt they were safe. There were some that couldn’t get it and they were told to go back to fixed wing flying.

I fear if these things aren’t addressed and corrected the gyro is going to be known as a widow maker again.

Mike your dad is the best gyro pilot and designer out there , BAR NONE ! and he will not brag about it as some on here will !!

 

[GeneralPatton]

Mines easy to inspect

My Calidus is very easy to service, fly, inspect,, because I do the required maintenance as prescribed by AG and Rotax. I have invested the time and sweat and coin to understand rotary flight, got the training from the masters of the art of flying and wrenching. Preparation pays great dividends, fellow gyronaunts.

 

[Greg Vos]

My Calidus is very easy to service, fly, inspect,, because I do the required maintenance as prescribed by AG and Rotax. I have invested the time and sweat and coin to understand rotary flight, got the training from the masters of the art of flying and wrenching. Preparation pays great dividends, fellow gyronaunts.

Is it easy to inspect the mast welding by the tank? a known weak point? asking because I’m rated on it as an instructor not a test Pilot so no sinister intention with my question, my personal opinion and I say again personal opinion…the AG offering does have some very questionable manufacturing techniques and when we approach Mathias who is the test pilot and marketing guru on these we seldom leave the conversation with a warm feeling, apart from him chanting it’s the best gyro in the world …yet he is not rated on anything other than AG … my suggestion is educate yourself on some of its quirks for your own safety