Incident - Cavalon N518DT - Arizona

[Abid]

With a full span tail either in vertical or horizontal plain mounted close to the prop even with a 914 there is very little felt as well.

I have 10 hours on a 100 HP 2-stroke Dominator. Very light machine. I would say the effects we are talking about were about the same on it as I feel them on an AR-1 whose tail is much farther back than Dominator and not as tall. The difference is the way rudder is rigged. If done right even with a 915 there is very little right rudder needed. The problem is when you level out and have the nose down for fast cruise of 90 to 100 mph, then you start to need constant left rudder. So the right thing is to rig it so you need some right rudder and left stick at full power takeoff and climb which would be considered normal even in small powerful GA airplanes and less left rudder for fast cruise.

 

[MikeBoyette]

I don’t think Dad put differential pitch in David’s tail when he built that for the Hirth. The metal tails also don’t allow to put the wings on upside down. In the old days he would do that very thing with the wood. It was pretty affective. Have a happy new year Abid.

 

[digbar]

"..,.If you'd live to be a grey-haired wonder,
Keep your nose out of the blue!.."

USAF Song

Very sad but very true with insurance companies.

Wayne

It's GRAY-haired wonder! Grey is for ...hounds or Earl ... tea.

 

[Rowdyflyer1903!]

"..,.If you'd live to be a grey-haired wonder,
Keep your nose out of the blue!.."

USAF Song

Very sad but very true with insurance companies.

Wayne

I suppose so if you are flying fighter planes or Apache’s the jingle makes some sense. So I guess stay out of sports cars, hot rods, speed boats roller blades, skate boards, snow Ice and climbing the steps of Air Force One as well If you are fortunate enough to reach a certain age. When should the cane or walker be mandatorily issued?

To suggest as many have, that all are physically and mentally unable to operate an aircraft at a mythical age Is pointing to age related bias.The Feds pulled that crap on Bob Hover, arguably one of the most capable pilots to ever live Later to rescind this bizarre ruling.

An age imagined by those who at a younger sees the future and how they expect to perform when and if they reach that lofty goal Is wrong to say the least. It is apparent the insurance companies and their actuaries say 75. Pretty cold and hard.

We all as pilots are required to ground ourself if we feel unfit to fly but fly what? A Pitts or a Cessna 150? A Cavilon or a Magni? Some suggest that training and experience in one type of aircraft makes you unfit or accident prone to fly another despite training and experience in the current category and class in which the seat is currently being warmed. Only the conscientious pilot has that right to assess fitness at that moment.

Experience in type and lack of quality transition training seems to point to pilot errors as well at any age. Is it the students fault they have not learned or is it the teacher? Jolly Old England loves to gloat their training and regulations are superior to the U.S. do A’s. I’m glad they feel that way and I’m glad I’m not them.

A salesman is not required to suggest a certain type of vehicle is beyond the imagined skill of the buyer with the wad of cash in their pocket. ” Let me see your log book please.”

We don’t want to see anyone injured in anything we are flying or a sport we are passionate and are currently participating in. It makes us look bad, Instructors or salesman or pilots, and we don’t want that.

We want the Feds to continue, for the most part to ignore us.

So what is the real reason for this age related bias? Why is it our sport has an elderly clientele? The rich and retired and no one in between. Makes you go ummmmmmmm doesn’t it?

 

[PJB]

Experience in type and lack of quality transition training seems to point to pilot errors as well at any age. Is it the students fault they have not learned or is it the teacher? Jolly Old England loves to gloat their training and regulations are superior to the U.S. do A’s. I’m glad they feel that way and I’m glad I’m not them.

Not really that is your personal feeling. It would be absolutely true that the UK have more experience with aircraft like Cavalon merely because it has flown here (UK) more widely and largely because we can’t fly many other Gyroplanes. Why are you “glad” not to be British? Have you not seen Lord Flashheart?

So what is the real reason for this age related bias? Why is it our sport has an elderly clientele? The rich and retired and no one in between. Makes you go ummmmmmmm doesn’t it?

Likely because many old people prang.

Here is a (I think) some things that likely translate to all nations (1 team 1 dream, don’t worry USA we are all in this together.. we have to be the RAF is smaller than your National Guard) but anyway…

Flying is expensive. Life is expensive. Aviation is not as trendy as it once was, adventure is less popular in 2023 and our military is considerably reduced. So in combination your average private pilot isn’t so much either an ex-military pilot, a younger guy looking for adventure or to fulfil a dream of flight whilst he is likely to be an older guy who had all the passion for flying as a younger man but couldn’t pay and now he can…

As a consequence older Bloggs just isn’t as sharp. Yeah yeah sure we all have anecdotal chat about the spritely old dude but generally old people slow down in all ways which is why the Indy 500 isn’t won by the 70 year old, or F1 or fast jet intake extended to ++ and it’s why the average ATPL gets put to pasture.

It’s also why you get up in the night to p155 and so on…

If you are old and have had a lifetime in the air of course you have far more mental capacity for aviation and get away with things but older new pilots can and do struggle. Worse they have been sold a dream and the capabilities of a Gyroplane and in combination it’s prone to snagging. It was ever thus just read this from yesterday:- https://www.buildagyrocopter.com/first-two-place-homebuilder-gyroplane-hollmann-ha-2m-sportster/

Piloting a gyroplane like the Sportster is easier than flying a Cessna 150, Hollmann maintains:

“Coordinated turns are made by simply pushing the control stick to the right or left. The aircraft can be flown hands-off, and no trim is needed for flying one or two people.”

“I have flown the Sportster in clouds under IFR weather conditions without the aid of instruments, and though I do not recommend this, it demonstrates the aircraft’s exceptional stability. Ease of flying is such that rated fixed-wing pilots easily transition to flying the Sportster in one hour”

What was that about salesmen??

 

[WaspAir]

Why are you “glad” not to be British?

Dear Biggles:

Perhaps they mentioned something about an inconvenient little 18th century colonial revolt in a footnote in your history books in school?

All the best,
Chuck Yeager

 

[MikeBoyette]

Dear Biggles:

Perhaps they mentioned something about an inconvenient little 18th century colonial revolt in a footnote in your history books in school?

All the best,
Chuck Yeager

I heard they called it an insurgent led insurrection.

 

[PJB]

??? Aside from the mix of fictional characters, the 18th century and the oversight of the huge amount of positive friendships / co-operation since; is that a cause of “a hate to be British”?

I’m not sure if it is really appropriate after so much time passes how one generation can change or apologise for the past. I guess if we all go back in history and start picking at all the threads where does it end??

If we were to do that I can say that globally whilst western EU countries would have much to apologise about within their various colonies from the 18-19th century im not so sure our American friends are so clean of conscious in the 20th century.

Ironically the BBC is covering the story of James Meredith at the moment https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m001k0c2

Happy Mother’s Day.

 

[WaspAir]

Most of the Brits I've known were quicker to spot attempts at humor.

 

[PJB]

Maybe.

 

[Resasi]

Most of the Brits I've known were quicker to spot attempts at humor.

Unfortunately a particularly barbed humour, that for many sadly isn't humour, and can be difficult to spot.

 

[EI-GYRO]

Looks like threads degenerate with age too, and possibly humour too.

Is this thread 'jumping the shark' perhaps.?

Asking for a friend....

 

[WaspAir]

Unfortunately a particularly barbed humour, that for many sadly isn't humour, and can be difficult to spot.

I'd no notion that that there was such sensitivity to what was intended as a tease, assuming that 240 years was not "too soon" to joke about independence. Offending was not on my mind. My apologies.

 

[PJB]

No no there is no offence taken, just surprised at that being a rational for hating to be British… I’m still puzzled however by anyone “hating” to be from any western democracy tbh. Sure I might hate to be North Korean as I would likely be oppressed or hate to be Palestinian as you might get shot, hate to be Ethiopian starving, etc etc but hey ho, moving on.

 

[MikeBoyette]

I feel hate would be a strong word we here in US use way to often.

 

[Aerofoam]

I hate it when you point out these shortcomings...........

 

[Greg Vos]

Mike because you notice, I can blade sail any gyroplane if I try to takeoff like that. Most of these are with stick position not all the way back takeoff rolls. It does not matter if you have a Sparrowhawk, a Dominator or an AutoGyro. You WILL blade sail if you takeoff that way. Airplane pilots specially ones flying from airports in their Cherokees or Cessnas are extremely accustomed to takeoff roll with yoke or stick in or near neutral. When they aren't thinking they fall back on that muscle memory. The only thing that will protect against their brain fart is a warning system to immediately remind them to wake up. There is no design that forces a pilot to pull the stick back on ground roll. The pilot has control of the stick and he can put it wherever he/she wants.

Now if this turns out to be a landing accident then you have a leg to stand on because indeed Cavalon is very unforgiving of landing slightly fast/flat or crooked in crosswind. That could have been a better design but when you go for a Cavalon you better train to deal with "it". Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies. You would never say getting in a Piper Cub, who the hell came up with difficult to use heel brakes and this stupid taildragger idea which wants to go sideways every time it moves and I can't even see ahead on it from pilot seat on takeoff and landing. You learn it or you stick with tri-gear baby wheels. Right?
Same idea. Do not buy a Cavalon if you are not committed to learning it properly spending proper time and proper attention. Maybe Cavalon owners can chime in if it is the best choice for a first gyroplane or not.

Again, these are just wild guesses. It may be a completely different case in this accident and may have nothing to do with it.

Cavalon, one gyro I just don’t enjoy ….they are well appointed and the fit & finish is nice ….I will now not comment any more …it will be impolite …ask me privately on my opinion of it and while your at throw in your tech questions about the Arrow copter as well

 

[WaspAir]

No no there is no offence taken, just surprised at that being a rational for hating to be British… I’m still puzzled however by anyone “hating” to be from any western democracy tbh. Sure I might hate to be North Korean as I would likely be oppressed or hate to be Palestinian as you might get shot, hate to be Ethiopian starving, etc etc but hey ho, moving on.

I think the actual words used, and to which I was responding, were "glad not to be", and not "hating to be". I think the "hating" term came from your own posts, actually. After "glad" and your Flasheart reference, I thought we had set up a humorous tangent, in which Biggles (fictional but quite skillful and honorable as I recall the books, and far more respectable than Flasheart) and a revolutionary allusion would be taken in the same vein. Obviously, it wasn't, and I hope we can cruise ahead from this misadventure.

 

[GyrOZprey]

With the excessively high rate of Cavalon accidents in the USA ... even the PRA ...IF we were to institute co-insurance plan(with an existing insurance company to cover the liability side)...IF we could get 100 members to initiate an initial hull coverage fund ...-even. @ 1/2 current hull rate -charged by insurance...just 2 Cavalon claims would wipe us out ...SO should we ask MORE for Cavalon owners to put into the pot ???? OR just offer 1/2 hull insurance/ higher deductible for these "high-risk" models????
Interesting ponderings ...& WHY has at least 1/3 of USA Cavalon fleet (maybe up to 1/2 ...many unreported incidents!) ...had serious accidents and lesser damage!????
Any good suggestions out there HOW to establish a PRA member-attracting insurance benefit ...WITHOUT being unfair?????

 

[PJB]

Yes all fair comment Waspair, please accept my apologise for the over reaction. xx

Cavalon - I have a view on the why, its not at all universally shared but I still think the rationale I give stands. Personally if I were in the market for a Cavalon I would spend a year in an open sport type, get a couple of hundred hours under my belt and then transition. Flying is a beautiful activity so no need to rush or race, I have never seen a Cavalon flown well by a new[newish] pilot during the take off and/or landing phase.