Incident - Cavalon N518DT - Arizona

[Steve_UK]

Latest FAA ASIAS shows nose wheel collapse and roll over 19.12.22

Date:	19-DEC-22
Time:	17:45:00Z
Regis#:	N518DT
Aircraft Make:	AUTOGYRO GMBH
Aircraft Model:	CAVALON
Event Type:	INCIDENT
Highest Injury:	UNKNOWN
Aircraft Missing:	No
Damage:	UNKNOWN
LOCATION
City:	BENSON
State:	ARIZONA
Country:	UNITED STATES
DESCRIPTION
Description:	AIRCRAFT NOSE GEAR COLLAPSED AND ROLLED OVER ON ITS SIDE, BENSON, AZ.
INJURY DATA
Total Fatal:	0

	Fatal	Serious	Minor	None	Unk
Flight Crew	0	0	0	0	1
Cabin Crew	0	0	0	0	0
Pax	0	0	0	0	0
Ground	0	0	0	0	0

OTHER
Activity:	PERSONAL
Flight Phase:	UNKNOWN (UNK)
Operation:	91
Aircraft Operator:
Flight Number:
FAA FSDO:	SCOTTSDALE FSDO
Entry Date:	20-DEC-22
Updated since entry:	No

 

[Abid]

Let me take a wild guess.
1) He flapped/blade sailed the rotor on takeoff probably because he is an airplane pilot and does not fly the gyroplane enough
2) He landed with speed rolling on like an airplane in a crosswind because that is what you do in an airplane. Probably had not flown gyroplane much recently
Disclaimer: I could be completely and utterly wrong but we'll see.

 

[MikeBoyette]

I seem to detect a pattern here. Time to blame the customer again. Instead of the inferior design and flawed techniques.

 

[Abid]

I seem to detect a pattern here. Time to blame the customer again. Instead of the inferior design.

Mike because you notice, I can blade sail any gyroplane if I try to takeoff like that. Most of these are with stick position not all the way back takeoff rolls. It does not matter if you have a Sparrowhawk, a Dominator or an AutoGyro. You WILL blade sail if you takeoff that way. Airplane pilots specially ones flying from airports in their Cherokees or Cessnas are extremely accustomed to takeoff roll with yoke or stick in or near neutral. When they aren't thinking they fall back on that muscle memory. The only thing that will protect against their brain fart is a warning system to immediately remind them to wake up. There is no design that forces a pilot to pull the stick back on ground roll. The pilot has control of the stick and he can put it wherever he/she wants.

Now if this turns out to be a landing accident then you have a leg to stand on because indeed Cavalon is very unforgiving of landing slightly fast/flat or crooked in crosswind. That could have been a better design but when you go for a Cavalon you better train to deal with "it". Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies. You would never say getting in a Piper Cub, who the hell came up with difficult to use heel brakes and this stupid taildragger idea which wants to go sideways every time it moves and I can't even see ahead on it from pilot seat on takeoff and landing. You learn it or you stick with tri-gear baby wheels. Right?
Same idea. Do not buy a Cavalon if you are not committed to learning it properly spending proper time and proper attention. Maybe Cavalon owners can chime in if it is the best choice for a first gyroplane or not.

Again, these are just wild guesses. It may be a completely different case in this accident and may have nothing to do with it.

 

[Vance]

This is not the first Cavalon to lose the nose gear.

The nose gear on a Cavalon is very difficult to inspect properly so it is my observation many pilots don’t.

The owner appears to have a repairman’s certificate for this aircraft.

This Cavalon (N518DT) has been flying since the middle of 2016.

 

[Abid]

This is not the first Cavalon to lose the nose gear.

The nose gear on a Cavalon is very difficult to inspect properly so it is my observation many pilots don’t.

The owner appears to have a repairman’s certificate for this aircraft.

This Cavalon (N518DT) has been flying since the middle of 2016.

He likely is flying his gyroplane after a break of months possibly. Is he an airplane pilot before?
We will find out these details soon enough. It is also possible he put side load on the front fork in an earlier landing and it yielded but he did not inspect to catch the deformation. The next time that happens it would be more prone to give way

 

[Vance]

Now if this turns out to be a landing accident then you have a leg to stand on because indeed Cavalon is very unforgiving of landing slightly fast/flat or crooked in crosswind. That could have been a better design but when you go for a Cavalon you better train to deal with "it". Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies.

In my opinion from training in several Cavalons they are not particularly sensitive to landing fast/flat or crooked.

I was surprised at how untidy a landing could be saved just by staying light on the pedals and not adding to the challenges inherent in fast/flat or crooked landings with incorrect cyclic inputs.

 

[Abid]

In my opinion from training in several Cavalons they are not particularly sensitive to landing fast/flat or crooked.

I was surprised at how untidy a landing could be saved just by staying light on the pedals and not adding to the challenges inherent in fast/flat or crooked landings with incorrect cyclic inputs.

Thanks. I have no time taking off or landing in a Cavalon so I cannot comment. I can only go by experience of others. Every aircraft though is supposed to be landed on mains and then the front should come down softly at the lowest possible speed. The lowest possible speed in a gyroplane is very very low specially in a cranked keel design like Cavalon

 

[Vance]

He likely is flying his gyroplane after a break of months possibly. Is he an airplane pilot before?
We will find out these details soon enough. It is also possible he put side load on the front fork in an earlier landing and it yielded but he did not inspect to catch the deformation. The next time that happens it would be more prone to give way

The registered owner also has a repairman’s certificate for a Challenger II; hardly an aircraft that encourages fast/flat landings.

 

[Abid]

The registered owner also has a repairman’s certificate for a Challenger II; hardly an aircraft that encourages fast/flat landings.

As in a Quad City Challenger from Canada?
Yes we will have to see if this even was a landing accident

 

[Peterpilot]

The registered owner also has a repairman’s certificate for a Challenger II; hardly an aircraft that encourages fast/flat landings.

A Challenger had the same N number, so it looks like he disposed or deregistered the Challenger and assigned it to the Cavalon.

 

[Peterpilot]

A Challenger had the same N number, so it looks like he disposed or deregistered the Challenger and assigned it to the Cavalon.

The same pilot crashed that Challenger in 2014 (with the same number) - NTSB report says engine quit mid-flight and pilot lost control during forced landing at 20 feet AGL due to wind gust.

 

[MikeBoyette]

Mike because you notice, I can blade sail any gyroplane if I try to takeoff like that. Most of these are with stick position not all the way back takeoff rolls. It does not matter if you have a Sparrowhawk, a Dominator or an AutoGyro. You WILL blade sail if you takeoff that way. Airplane pilots specially ones flying from airports in their Cherokees or Cessnas are extremely accustomed to takeoff roll with yoke or stick in or near neutral. When they aren't thinking they fall back on that muscle memory. The only thing that will protect against their brain fart is a warning system to immediately remind them to wake up. There is no design that forces a pilot to pull the stick back on ground roll. The pilot has control of the stick and he can put it wherever he/she wants.

Now if this turns out to be a landing accident then you have a leg to stand on because indeed Cavalon is very unforgiving of landing slightly fast/flat or crooked in crosswind. That could have been a better design but when you go for a Cavalon you better train to deal with "it". Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies. You would never say getting in a Piper Cub, who the hell came up with difficult to use heel brakes and this stupid taildragger idea which wants to go sideways every time it moves and I can't even see ahead on it from pilot seat on takeoff and landing. You learn it or you stick with tri-gear baby wheels. Right?
Same idea. Do not buy a Cavalon if you are not committed to learning it properly spending proper time and proper attention. Maybe Cavalon owners can chime in if it is the best choice for a first gyroplane or not.

Again, these are just wild guesses. It may be a completely different case in this accident and may have nothing to do with it.

Abid what you say is true. Think about this. I’m saying that prerotator and take off procedure should changed and these accidents would be reduced significantly. I hate to bring up my old man again however, I can’t think of one of his students that ever flapped the blades on takeoff in such a manner that it destroyed the machine.

He would take them out in the two place and purposely let them flap the blades at low speed and teach them how to prevent it. In 20+ years of teaching I know not one of his students ever had an accident like these. His hydraulic prerotator allows you to prerotate with the stick back. Thus when he would deem you ready he would teach you how to start the takeoff roll with it engaged. Once the aircraft began to get light let go of the handle and few seconds your in the air nose down accelerating in ground affect. This type of take off enables you to take off with minimal ground speed.

I know you have it in your heart that this is all on the pilots because of a bias you have for older dudes and airplane pilots. I agree they are more prone to do stupid mistakes. I just think the aircraft and takeoff procedures could l be altered to be more forgiving of those mistakes. Dad had plenty of airplane pilots he converted as a CFI. They were not allowed to solo until he felt they were safe. There were some that couldn’t get it and they were told to go back to fixed wing flying.

I fear if these things aren’t addressed and corrected the gyro is going to be known as a widow maker again.

 

[Steve_UK]

The pilot of the 2014 Quad City accident ( same reg ) was at that time aged 71 years. If the same pilot then approx 79 years currently.

 

[Abid]

The pilot of the 2014 Quad City accident ( same reg ) was at that time aged 71 years. If the same pilot then approx 79 years currently.

Yikes. I just heard from a person very interested in buying a used 914 powered AR-1 that he could not go through with it because he is 80 years old and he found out no insurance will cover him for any aircraft let alone a gyroplane now. I did not know he was 80 or I could have told him that. Insurance cuts you off at 75 years old for all aircraft. You can only get insurance past that if you are a current customer of the underwriter without a lapse. Insurance companies know the stats and probabilities. They are not out there to lose money.

 

[EI-GYRO]

Maybe we could wait for a little more detail before we crucify the pilot, y'think??

 

[BEN S]

Hell nooo!
Off with his head!!!

I agree....lets find out what happened first?

 

[Mike G]

Agreed, let's wait to see what the pilot "remembers".

But in the mean time it's always fun to speculate.

I see two possibilities here:
1) The nose wheel simply failed on a “normal” take off.
2) The nose wheel broke off due to being hammered into the ground during a “bad” TO.

1) If the nose wheel simply broke off this suggests either:
a) faulty/weak design
or
b) faulty manufacture.

If a) then we would expect more nose wheel failures of this model.
If b) then unless there are other examples this suggests a one-off Monday morning/Friday evening manufacturing error.

2) If the nose wheel failed due to being hammered into the ground, this could be:
a) Due to regular hammering the nose wheel into the ground causing the nose wheel to yield and eventually fail.
b) As suggested by Abid a poor take off (blade flap??) and the nose wheel failing due to a very heavy impact with the ground.

My conclusion

If it’s 1) (design or manufacture), do we have feedback of other nose wheel failures of this model?

If it’s 2) then I would conclude poor pilot technique or training.

Mike G

 

[Kinetic]

One of the more enjoyable discussions I have read in this forum. (Really, not being sarcastic)

1) "Maybe Cavalon owners can chime in if it is the best choice for a first gyroplane or not." Probably not, especially with a 915is, if you are a fixed wing pilot that wants to get a sign off after a dozen hours of training. If the blade flap doesn't get you or the torque on takeoff, the first time you rotate like a fix wing will likely do the trick.
2) "I seem to detect a pattern here." Try plural tense, as in some common patterns.
3) "Instead of the inferior design and flawed techniques." How about Dawins Theory? "theory of biological evolution by natural selection."
4) "Every aircraft thought is supposed to be landed on mains and then the front should come down softly at the lowest possible speed. The lowest possible speed in a gyroplane is very very low specially in a cranked keel design like Cavalon" This is consistent with my landing in a Cavalon, low, slow, and I would add straight without yaw. At low speed it takes a strong steady input on the rudder to straighten up. Alternative is abort and get it right, rather than coming down crooked on the nose wheel.
5) "In my opinion from training in several Cavalons they are not particularly sensitive to landing fast/flat or crooked.I was surprised at how untidy a landing could be saved just by staying light on the pedals and not adding to the challenges inherent in fast/flat or crooked landings with incorrect cyclic inputs." I agree, same with my experience. Very relaxed and gentle cyclic inputs. Active feet and light, but more input on the rudder at slower speeds not having the airflow to help out as much as in a landing on idle.

(You are not suggesting to do so, But why take the risk of putting the nose wheel down crooked - a bad habit develops over time. Land it straight or abort)

6) "Do not buy a Cavalon if you are not committed to learning it properly spending proper time and proper attention." Best advice.

 

[okikuma]

Yikes. I just heard from a person very interested in buying a used 914 powered AR-1 that he could not go through with it because he is 80 years old and he found out no insurance will cover him for any aircraft let alone a gyroplane now. I did not know he was 80 or I could have told him that. Insurance cuts you off at 75 years old for all aircraft. You can only get insurance past that if you are a current customer of the underwriter without a lapse. Insurance companies know the stats and probabilities. They are not out there to lose money.

"..,.If you'd live to be a grey-haired wonder,
Keep your nose out of the blue!.."

USAF Song

Very sad but very true with insurance companies.

Wayne