Impossible turns

[WaspAir]

Some of you may find this interesting, regarding returning to the airport after an engine failure. This was a student pilot in a glider (non-powered) but with similar issues to powered aircraft.

There are two flights on the same trace pictured above. I pulled the tow rope release knob for the first flight at 300'agl (counterpart to an engine failure) and the student turned 180° to land with a quartering tailwind and stop at the same spot where we took off. Sink rate is never better than 300 fpm in that trainer, so we would be on the ground in less than a minute, with the student only able to choose where. The event was artificially created by me, but is not a simulation, because once the rope is gone, it's a real emergency and no power-up is possible.

On the second flight, I waited until the tow plane had started a right turn and reached 400' before creating the emergency. The student made a right base entry to land westward on the shorter crosswind runway, stopping before the north-south taxiway. Both events were a surprise to the student (from my back seat position, I saw him twitch when he felt and heard the rope release).

The big message from this is not that you should expect glider performance from your rotorcraft, but to plan for and expect emergencies. After the engine quits is no time to devise a plan. You should have one already in mind at all times. My student handled it with aplomb because he was trained to be constantly evaluating and updating his options and had a plan already chosen.

 

[Aaron R]

Nice graphic. It reminds me of the time my glider instructor pulled the release knob and my only option was a 180 turn to land. But the quartering tailwind was so strong I could not maintain directional control for long after touchdown. By the time I got it stopped we were at the runway edge, fortunately in between the runway edge lights.

 

[WaspAir]

The graphic is from the Naviter See You app, which runs on my cell phone using gps data while I'm instructing. It's quite handy for student post-flight debriefing.

I'm glad you escaped without damage in your training adventure. Even so, I'd much rather take out a runway light than have to put the ship down in trees, rock piles, or a school yard full of kids!

 

[Mayfield]

or a school yard full of kids!

4 to 6 year olds would give the best energy absorption for the least damage to the airframe

 

[Mayfield]

Despite how my post above reads, I really love children.

But as I age I find it increasingly difficult to eat a whole one.

 

[WaspAir]

 

[Doug Riley]

Got some nifty recipes for ya, Jim.

 

[Mayfield]

Got some nifty recipes for ya, Jim.

Thanks Doug. I sometimes prefer veal like preparation. And as for JR's assertion that I don't like dogs; I do, much the same way I love children.

 

[MikeBoyette]

As Fat Bastard said "You keep your MoJo I want your baaaabbbbaaay"! I want my baby back I want baby back ribs. In BBQ Sauce.

 

[okikuma]

View attachment 1159601

Some of you may find this interesting, regarding returning to the airport after an engine failure. This was a student pilot in a glider (non-powered) but with similar issues to powered aircraft.

There are two flights on the same trace pictured above. I pulled the tow rope release knob for the first flight at 300'agl (counterpart to an engine failure) and the student turned 180° to land with a quartering tailwind and stop at the same spot where we took off. Sink rate is never better than 300 fpm in that trainer, so we would be on the ground in less than a minute, with the student only able to choose where. The event was artificially created by me, but is not a simulation, because once the rope is gone, it's a real emergency and no power-up is possible.

On the second flight, I waited until the tow plane had started a right turn and reached 400' before creating the emergency. The student made a right base entry to land westward on the shorter crosswind runway, stopping before the north-south taxiway. Both events were a surprise to the student (from my back seat position, I saw him twitch when he felt and heard the rope release).

The big message from this is not that you should expect glider performance from your rotorcraft, but to plan for and expect emergencies. After the engine quits is no time to devise a plan. You should have one already in mind at all times. My student handled it with aplomb because he was trained to be constantly evaluating and updating his options and had a plan already chosen.

For 45+ years, Los Alamitos AAF has had a Civil Air Patrol squadron with gliders and a winch located ar the West end of the airfield. Launches were parallel to taxiway Charlie in the dirt, and landings were performed on taxiway Bravo heading West. Glider flights and patterns operate over North-West and North of the airfield over the city and remain inside the Class D airspace. Military arrivals and departures pattern is from the South-East and South. The gliders do have battery operated COMM radios but no transponder. As long as the gliders stay within Los Al's Class D airspace, no transponder is needed.

Way back in the last century, when I was more fit and trim, I took some instruction in the CAP Sq Schweizer 2-33 to add a winch launch enforcement. On my third flight / launch, the tow rope broke around 400 ft AGL. Instinctively, I pushed the nose over to the zero G point and set up my glide at around 42 - 45 mph airspeed for a landing while simultaneously notifying the tower of the rope break. My first thought was just to land on runway 04L, and the tower cleared me to land on 04L while that initial thought formulated inside my brain. However I quickly realized that I can easily perform a gentle, continuous 270 degree turn to the left and land on Taxiway Bravo, so I notified the tower landing on 04L was not necessary and I'll land on Taxiway Bravo. If I was flying an airplane, helo, or gyro, landing on runway 04L would be the better choice.

As soon as I landed and rolled to a stop, the instructor spoke up telling me I did great and he would sign my winch launch endorsement right then and there. His voice startled me because my total focus and concentration was on aviating, navigating, and communicating during the whole event, I forgot I was in a two place machine and he was sitting in the back. The ego inside me was yelling "YES" however the "professionalism" inside made me inform the instructor that I should still perform several more dual winch launches before the endorsement.

Very early in my aviation career, my Dad told me, "Son, when the engine quits, the government or the insurance company owns the aircraft. Save yourself, not the aircraft."

Wayne

 

[okikuma]

BTW, the golf course in the photo is where as a child, Tiger Woods learned to golf.

Wayne

 

[WaspAir]

Everywhere I go there are golf courses next to airports. I guess they are both low dollar per acre revenue uses of the land. In the west, I find it handy to spot the artificial looking green spot from far away when trying to locate an unfamiliar airport visually on a cross country.

 

[okikuma]

View attachment 1159601

Some of you may find this interesting, regarding returning to the airport after an engine failure. This was a student pilot in a glider (non-powered) but with similar issues to powered aircraft.

There are two flights on the same trace pictured above. I pulled the tow rope release knob for the first flight at 300'agl (counterpart to an engine failure) and the student turned 180° to land with a quartering tailwind and stop at the same spot where we took off. Sink rate is never better than 300 fpm in that trainer, so we would be on the ground in less than a minute, with the student only able to choose where. The event was artificially created by me, but is not a simulation, because once the rope is gone, it's a real emergency and no power-up is possible.

On the second flight, I waited until the tow plane had started a right turn and reached 400' before creating the emergency. The student made a right base entry to land westward on the shorter crosswind runway, stopping before the north-south taxiway. Both events were a surprise to the student (from my back seat position, I saw him twitch when he felt and heard the rope release).

The big message from this is not that you should expect glider performance from your rotorcraft, but to plan for and expect emergencies. After the engine quits is no time to devise a plan. You should have one already in mind at all times. My student handled it with aplomb because he was trained to be constantly evaluating and updating his options and had a plan already chosen.

JR,

For some reason, I missed this bit of news until this morning. The passing of Richard McSpadden on 01 October 2023.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2023/october/04/aopas-mcspadden-lived-his-passion

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193166/pdf

Was this the reason why you started this thread?

Wayne

 

[WaspAir]

No, I hadn't heard about this until after I started the thread.

There is some strange ambiguity in the accident description, citing only distance from the other airplane at the time of the turn-back, rather than altitude and position from the runway.

 

[okikuma]

JR,

The curled up right wing tip and the nose down position upon impact leads me to think the aircraft was in a spin to the right at that moment. If so, I'm not surprised. The C-177 Cardinal's airfoil is the NACA 2415 / 64A215 and does possess a more pronounced, crisp stall than the more common NACA 2412 airfoil that Cessna used on the other aircraft.

Wayne

 

[WaspAir]

Very hard to tell from just the description. In any event, a spin-in from someone with those credentials is definitely surprising. Whatever their plan was, assuming they had one, it obviously wasn't adequate.

 

[okikuma]

Unless there is a video or a reputable eye witness report, we will never know if it was an incipient spin or not.

While writing this reply, I have remembered several important things about the C-177. When sitting in the front seat, one is located just at the leading edge of the wing. Great for visibility, however with two occupants in the front seats, and full fuel it is very easy to be outside the forward edge of the CG envelope. In that condition, one can certainly run out of elevator / stabilator authority when it is needed the most.

The crash is very sad. My thoughts and prayers for both families and friends during this time of sorrow and pain.

Wayne