I agree the gyroplane accident rate is too high;

Greg Vos

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Although they may occur in the same phase of flight, I consider these situations to be radically different in severity and ease of recovery. Aborting a takeoff in a gyro is trivial when compared to attempting a stall recovery from low altitude in an airplane.

There is no reason that being "behind the curve" early in a gyro takeoff has to be lethal or even result in damage (put it back on the ground, duh!), whereas a low altitude airplane stall is pretty much guaranteed to be a significant NTSB event.

Some gyro designs do produce their own issues, such as rotor management for the Bensen-derived systems. The articulated rotor gyros I fly most often avoid that issue completely through their design. Design choices such as that can strongly influence "potential" safety, e.g. tricycle gear reducing the chance of a ground loop over a taildragger airplane. But stupid pilot tricks still arise. You can't make anything foolproof because fools are too creative for a designer to anticipate all they might do.

The question of concern is why are gyro pilots not getting the benefit of the potential safety designed into their aircraft? The problem lies between the ears of the pilots. I share Vance's puzzlement about how to fix it.
The ears of the student or want to be gyro pilot can only take in what instructors demonstrate and preach .... sometimes we just need to speak with a bit more authority ...
I come from a helicopter background and when I did my gyroplane Licence I was fortunate to fly with Len Klopper from Cape Town who was then a young and upcoming instructor at our local school, Len his words still in my ears today I hear him saying airspeed, airspeed, AIRSPEED! This is not a helicopter.. with airspeed you can get out of trouble, words I will never forget and words I say to all who fly with me.
Len did not need fancy programs or cartoon models or drawings to make sure that I appreciated the importance of airspeed in a gyroplane, thank you Len.
For that the lesson was worth every dime it cost.
 

Greg Vos

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I am writing about two distantly different things Phil.

Training is where I teach people to fly and develop their skills.

The training is tailored to the individual, their machine and their mission.

Tasks are repeated until a satisfactory proficiency is achieved.

I don’t sign them off to take the test until I am convinced that they have the skills to safely fly a gyroplane beyond the practical test standards.

Every two years they need to get a flight review to see that their skills have not deteriorated and they have kept up with the Federal Aviation Regulations.

Testing is where someone else determines if that person deservers a pilot certificate.

In order to take the emotion out of the testing the FAA developed the practical test standards.

If you meet the standards you pass if you don’t meet the standards you go back for more training. My clients at this point have a hundred percent pass rate.

Hopefully a pilot will continue to develop their skills, make good aviation decisions and practice risk mitigation.

To become a gyroplane flight instructor you are expected to meet the Commercial Pilot, Rotorcraft-Gyroplane practical test standards from either seat while explaining the maneuver under any conditions you might train under.

It is good that you flight instructor presents you with challenges. The engine may stop at any time and many quick decisions may be required for a successful outcome. It is also a good reason to fly a little higher and pay attention to where the wires, fences and ditches are as well as which way the wind blows.

Navigation, flight planning and fuel management are also important. It is easy to get lulled into careless flight planning with all the features of today's GPS.

The last spot landing I won I touched two feet past the line and was stopped in six feet. I feel it is an important skill.
I am writing about two distantly different things Phil.

Training is where I teach people to fly and develop their skills.

The training is tailored to the individual, their machine and their mission.

Tasks are repeated until a satisfactory proficiency is achieved.

I don’t sign them off to take the test until I am convinced that they have the skills to safely fly a gyroplane beyond the practical test standards.

Every two years they need to get a flight review to see that their skills have not deteriorated and they have kept up with the Federal Aviation Regulations.

Testing is where someone else determines if that person deservers a pilot certificate.

In order to take the emotion out of the testing the FAA developed the practical test standards.

If you meet the standards you pass if you don’t meet the standards you go back for more training. My clients at this point have a hundred percent pass rate.

Hopefully a pilot will continue to develop their skills, make good aviation decisions and practice risk mitigation.

To become a gyroplane flight instructor you are expected to meet the Commercial Pilot, Rotorcraft-Gyroplane practical test standards from either seat while explaining the maneuver under any conditions you might train under.

It is good that you flight instructor presents you with challenges. The engine may stop at any time and many quick decisions may be required for a successful outcome. It is also a good reason to fly a little higher and pay attention to where the wires, fences and ditches are as well as which way the wind blows.

Navigation, flight planning and fuel management are also important. It is easy to get lulled into careless flight planning with all the features of today's GPS.

The last spot landing I won I touched two feet past the line and was stopped in six feet. I feel it is an important skill.
Why on a landing competition only.... I teach guys to land this way as ops normal 😊....it’s that helicopter thing in the blood 😂
 

Philbennett

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I agree Greg and sometimes the message of flight safety doesn't sit that well with a "customer service" type attitude. Very sadly many instructors have had students get killed under their watch and I think there also needs to be an appreciation that actually flying solo isn't a reality for everyone and tough conversations need to be had that isn't a tick box or a smiley face and a pat on the back.

At some point it gets a serious business wherein the guys isn't drilled properly he just doesn't come back. His wife and family at home waved him goodbye in the morning and they won't ever see,feel or engage with him again.
 

TyroGyro

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Len his words still in my ears today I hear him saying airspeed, airspeed, AIRSPEED! This is not a helicopter.. with airspeed you can get out of trouble, words I will never forget and words I say to all who fly with me.
Len did not need fancy programs or cartoon models or drawings to make sure that I appreciated the importance of airspeed in a gyroplane, thank you Len.
So well done Len... He sounds a great instructor.

It may interest you to know, Greg, that I was taught by an instructor who learned to fly the Gyropedia way, and who became an instructor the Gyropedia way.... and I too still have the words "airspeed, airspeed, AIRSPEED" ringing in my ears.

And Gyropedia is so much more than "cartoons" or "fancy programs"...

So, why the repeated factual misrepresentations and straw-man arguments, Greg?
 
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ferranrosello

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The first thing everybody should know about accidents is that nobody is free of them. We are humans and humans make errors... All of us can make an error when we are flying...

Then comes the question about who is a great pilot or a great instructor. What is the receipt. Too much complex to be answered. What we call aeronautic attitude is a part of the answer, but is is not all the answer. And the very first step for a good aeronautic attitude is my first paragraph.. be aware that I can have an accident too at any time.

We have several tools to avoid accidents. They are summarized in procedures, knowledge and following the rules. Flying is dangerous and all pilots should know it.

In my point of view three kind of accidents and its causes:

When a student pilot starts with his training he follows his instructor in everything concerning flying. He is devoted to the instructor. Some instructors enjoy flying what it is good. But sometimes they are doing some aerobatics and they say the student pilots you must not do it... But what it is the message? Rules are not there to be followed... This is the first step.
Secondly, gyrocopter manufacturers are demonstrating gyros to their potential customers in a very spirited way... and of course the customer enjoy very much the flight. When he starts the course is immediately aware that flying is not so easy as it seemed in the demonstration flight. Eventually he gets his flying licence. At the very beginning he follows all regulations, don´t do aerobatics and very low level flying. But he sees lots of pilots doing it in you tube... And when he feel confident he try. Normally nothing happens, and this increases his confidence, until something happens... Pilots flying gyros get this degree of confidence than let them try new thing by their own much earlier than fixed wing pilots. And if you watch the manufacturers publicity is amazing... This is the model of a great pilot that some pilots want to emulate.

These kind of accidents for nearly are nearly all fatal accidents which I know. They are very easy to be avoided, a question of following regulations.

The second kind of accidents. Those that happen to pilots who fly too few hours per year. They are loosing abilities, but they don´t want to get a check with a CFI, because they are pilots. They have a paper that says that. Too many pilots think that in the moment they have got the licence they are a new kind of human being and are much better pilots than a month ago. Unfortunately this is not true. I say always to my student pilots than the only difference when the get the papers is that since then they will continue learning to fly under they own responsibility. But they need to continue learning because they still ignore 80% of flying abilities. It impossible to teach them in less than 100 flying hours...

The third kind are errors. Some are directly pilot errors. Others design and manufacturer errors... I know much more about emergency procedures in may gyro copter than the factory... You can imagine the way in which I Have learnt. However I have a very good background in helicopter emergencies which helps a lot. I have introduced this kind of attitude emergency training in a basic level in my courses.

From my point of view the accidents not happens because of the poor training. They happens because our flying environment promotes accidents.
This is the aeronautical culture we need to expand...

Ferràn
 

TyroGyro

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Ferràn, the Gyropedia training philosophy includes:-

1. You the student, are being trained inside a small box of the gyrocopter's capabilities. It is a safe box. But you must promise to stay inside that box, once you gain your basic pilot's licence...
The instructor can fly inside a somewhat bigger box. But there is an even bigger box that an instructor will NOT fly in, and that is the box only for expert display pilots. Until you learn to be an instructor or a display pilot, you must NOT fly outside the box you have been trained in, or you may die...

2. You must remember that a basic pilot's licence is nothing more than a licence to continue learning. And you should set your own limits, for example 5 KTS crosswind, in Gyropedia and stick to it, only increasing by ONE KNOT at a time as you gain experience.
We also know that pilot skills deteriorate, so Gyropedia instructors will train you to a level about 25% above the minimum required to gain a basic pilot's licence. We will give you some extra margin before you are put for the test..

3. Gyropedia says: "If there is ANY doubt, there is NO doubt" You should NOT fly. That is the essence of good aeronautical decision making.
 
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Greg Vos

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So well done Len... He sounds a great instructor.

It may interest you to know, Greg, that I was taught by an instructor who learned to fly the Gyropedia way, and who became an instructor the Gyropedia way.... and I too still have the words "airspeed, airspeed, AIRSPEED" ringing in my ears.

And Gyropedia is so much more than "cartoons" or "fancy programs"...

So, why the repeated factual misrepresentations and straw-man arguments, Greg?
Tyrogyro I’m not in a mood to pick a fight or engage in a personal discussion with you, I have no issue with Phil’s work or the gyropedia.
I have no issue with how you were trained and I’m glad you have turned out to be such a great pilot and mentor towards our hobby, possibly with your enthusiasm you could cross pollinate this program and on sell it to the Fixed wing as well as Helicopter schools because training is training and I’m sure they will bennafit as well?

I was simply saying that a good instructor cannot be replaced by anything, now I’m not sure if this can be more clear? Let me say in another way possibly this will make it easier for you...... the biggest safety feature on any aircraft is the pilot.

Tyro I have had a number of instructors in my life having completed both the helicopter and fixed wing types, there are parts of that training that stood out as exceptional, and I can assure you Sir those too were good instructors who left far reaching tips in my brain, and to think they did this without gyropedia is almost unbelievable.

Tyro then finally on this matter and please let it rest now, I was trained long before gyropedia, are you suggesting that the training us older bullets received (older in flight time) was inferior? And that the British Rotorcraft syllabus we used as the foundation is flawed?

I am almost of the opinion that you must be a regional sales manager for Phill they way you continue to promote the product 😉
For the record a few years ago when Phill was launching the program we had in depth Skype discussions around its merits and implementation, in case you did not know....Phill Harwood is or was one of the authors of the BRC Ppl (G) program at the time.


Tyrogyro if I may ask how many gyro types are you rated to fly and how many hours as Pic have you accumulated? Just curious
 
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TyroGyro

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Tyrogyro I’m not in a mood to pick a fight or engage in a personal discussion with you....
<SNIP further misrepresentation, straw men, insinuation, condescension, the usual staples in the bully's toolkit>
It'd be fun to hear you when you ARE in the mood, Greg....:rolleyes:
 

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A good thread turning into personal issues.

As an instructor with a helicopter background myself, I'm with Vance, Wasp, Greg, Phil, Ferran, and the others who have shed some valuable insight in this thread. I too learned to fly in 1979, long before Gyropedia, and my training was modeled on the British system in India. Very structured. I believe the FAA training regimen is no different. The common theme is promoting a culture of safety in aviation. What are we as individuals and instructors doing to promote this. What Tyro has posted in thread #86 regarding Gyropedia is nothing new to some of us old timers. And there is no substitute for actual flying experience.

I had a crash in Dec 2018 after all these years of accident free flying. I am of the belief that it was a lack of knowledge and understanding on my part regarding some aspects of a rotor system that relied on airflow vs. engine power. Aviation is inherently risky. So why are we in it? As I go through the arduous process of rebuilding my gyroplane, I always ask myself if there is any reward associated with any additional risk that I take when doing something. Irrespective of the reasons and choices (good or bad) made in ADM, the fact remains that good training, a desire to further one's knowledge and skills, and promoting a culture of safety will go a long way in reducing the accident rate.
 

Vance

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In fairness Vance when you ask me "If you know why the gyroplane accident rate is so high perhaps you would share it with us" i think I've contributed a view which was also given in a thread prior to this one on pre-rotation (which you might not agree with and it might be wrong but so far its not been disputed..) but even in this thread:-

post 25 - suggests its a training issue... seems odd to hide best practice behind a pay wall... whats taught not keeping up with the aircraft developments...and the small group of guys in the industry not wishing to speak out because putting ones head above the wall means it gets shot off...I think in aviation its known as CRM...

post 26 - all of it gives a view as to why accident rate is high

post 36 - same

post 42 - same

post 55 - gives an additional view that the focus hasn't been there with in the UK distraction to other things that have made almost zero impact.

There isn't a silver bullet but likewise it isn't a PR job either. I'm sure you are a very diligent guy good with your customers etc. BUT we aren't talking about what you do etc we are talking about the fact that with acceptance of the issue comes an ability to give it some attention and then perhaps a resolution.

Just in my view plain speaking is more effective than dancing around the issue so as not to upset anyone will be effective. The training in the UK and the US is defective - why? because so far we haven't been comfortable to grasp the nettle which is the current method you have right now is the one that aircraft are crashing under. It gets even worse when you consider that (in the UK at least) that training is then validated by a flight test with an examiner. So if you agree that the accident rate is too high then you have to agree that the current training is flawed.

If you can get over that issue then we are able to go down a better path. That better path will include more focus upon basic take off and landings rather than things that hardly ever happen or have almost no impact upon the accident rate (in the UK at least a outsized focus upon navigation). It also means recognition that training isn't done with a PPL pass and so revalidation needs to be done yearly and there needs to be much better control around differences training and some standardisation (which currently there is none). There needs to be much better conversation/feedback between manufacturer and authority because the current POHs are pretty poor especially with regard performance - so either train pilots to achieve the data OR give the data the pilots are trained to achieve. Then all of this information needs proper exchange and on TOP of the table not stuffed either behind a paywall or within / amongst a group of people who invent XYZ and snear at the rest. Contribution of valid ideas should be welcomed not punished, something of derision or pushed back against because it wasn't invented here...

I don't think any of that is too hard to achieve or a silly suggestion. Perhaps in time we will see it but as I see it in 2020 it needs a change in mindset.
I looked at all the posts you referenced and appears to me we have a different perspective on gyroplane flight training Phil.

Every time I fly I find value in the training I received years ago.

Every time I fly with a flight instructor I learn things to help me be a better pilot and better flight instructor.

To be fair I learn every time I fly.

I feel that todays training has value and many of today’s flight instructors are doing a great job. Some are not.

I work to instruct well today and learn to get better tomorrow.

I don’t recall dancing around any issues or being afraid to stick my head up.

I am at odds with some flight instructors on many levels. I see no reason to make that disagreement public. I communicate with them directly if I feel there is value in the discussion.

I feel most of the POHs we have today are much better than what we used to have and there is no question they could be better. I teach the procedures in the POH for whatever gyroplane I am training in.

If something I feel is missing I try to fill in the blanks.

If someone wants to charge for the work they do to improve flight instruction or make it organized I am happy to pay for it to become a better flight instructor. I feel that is part of the cost of being a professional flight instructor.

I have received more than my money’s worth with Gyropedia. Phil Harwood and I have different training philosophies and I can’t recall him ever sneering at that divergence. He has always been open to suggestions and thoughtful in his response.

All of the flight instructors I know are willing to share their knowledge and experience with me. I recently called Greg Spicola about a client I have with an American Ranger because he has so much more experience with the AR 1. He was generous with his time and shared his experience. A client of Greg’s has a Sport Copter II in my hangar. Greg lives 2,700 miles from me.

I feel navigation and flight planning are important skills for the sort of gyroplane flying I do. I fly near restricted air space and in busy complex airspace. I feel a greater emphasis should be placed on weather, navigation, flight planning, diversion, fuel management and emergencies by flight instructors in the USA than is called for in the practical test standards and by the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

I prefer to focus on making a good thing better than imagining it is defective and throwing it away and starting over.

I am not a manufacturer so I can’t change the POH.

I am not the FAA so I can’t change the rules.

I am a flight instructor doing the best I can and trying to get better.

I have lost more than a few clients because of insurance costs.

I have lost several close friends to gyroplane accidents.

I want to play forward the value I found in my gyroplane instruction and learn and improve my flight instructing skills.

I want to learn how to prioritize my flight instruction to do the most to prevent gyroplane mishaps.
 
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bryancobb

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Vance,
The safety record for gyros, in my opinion is because type flying most gyro guys I have seen do is sort of in the same family as fixed-wing airshow flying when those pilots have a low altitude waiver.

What I mean by this is, it's low. It has a lot of yanking and banking, and it it's very unforgiving because of the proximity to the ground. The reason for the accident rate is partly because this type of fixed-wing flying usually is being done by pilots with years of experience and a fair amount of training. Most airshow pilots have a commercial license.

Gyro folks start doing this type flying as soon as they solo and they decide when they are ready, not when they have enough experience. Many gyro pilots fly alone during these early hours and develop bad habits that are their foundation. They never have to consider that bad decision making might injure or kill their passenger. They are a free spirit and don't like the "controls" that most general aviation folks are willing to allow.

And finally, gyro folks don't have much oversight. The FAA just lets them do whatever they please. If newly-minted gyro pilots would do normal cross-country flying for a couple a hundred hours as they read and learned and gained experience, the safety record would improve significantly.

Bryan
 

Vance

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Vance,
The safety record for gyros, in my opinion is because type flying most gyro guys I have seen do is sort of in the same family as fixed-wing airshow flying when those pilots have a low altitude waiver.

What I mean by this is, it's low. It has a lot of yanking and banking, and it it's very unforgiving because of the proximity to the ground. The reason for the accident rate is partly because this type of fixed-wing flying usually is being done by pilots with years of experience and a fair amount of training. Most airshow pilots have a commercial license.

Gyro folks start doing this type flying as soon as they solo and they decide when they are ready, not when they have enough experience. Many gyro pilots fly alone during these early hours and develop bad habits that are their foundation. They never have to consider that bad decision making might injure or kill their passenger. They are a free spirit and don't like the "controls" that most general aviation folks are willing to allow.

And finally, gyro folks don't have much oversight. The FAA just lets them do whatever they please. If newly-minted gyro pilots would do normal cross-country flying for a couple a hundred hours as they read and learned and gained experience, the safety record would improve significantly.

Bryan
Those are reasonable assumptions Bryan from someone that has not flown a gyroplane.

I feel your assumptions are not backed up by the NTSB reports on last year’s accidents.

The reason I began the thread with last year’s NTSB’s gyroplane accident reports was so the thread would not get bogged down with assumptions based on personal opinions.

I can see that was an unreasonable fantasy.

In my opinion there was only one accident where low altitude was a factor and I don’t see any where aggressive flying was a factor.

In my opinion most were simply poor aviation decision making combined with a lack of proficiency.

I would like to address the training issues that may have prevented these eleven accidents.
 

Philbennett

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I looked at all the posts you referenced and appears to me we have a different perspective on gyroplane flight training Phil.

Every time I fly I find value in the training I received years ago.

Every time I fly with a flight instructor I learn things to help me be a better pilot and better flight instructor.

To be fair I learn every time I fly.

I feel that todays training has value and many of today’s flight instructors are doing a great job. Some are not.

I work to instruct well today and learn to get better tomorrow.
Can you highlight what part of the posts you've read from me that allows you to take a view that I have a different perspective on flight training from that which you've posted above?


I am at odds with some flight instructors on many levels. I see no reason to make that disagreement public. I communicate with them directly if I feel there is value in the discussion.
Yep I feel not entirely dis-similar although given this is a gyroplane forum, it would be slightly dead if nobody expressed a view? Isn't this type of exchange the whole point of a forum and actually opening debate so others can engage also?

I feel most of the POHs we have today are much better than what we used to have and there is no question they could be better. I teach the procedures in the POH for whatever gyroplane I am training in.

If something I feel is missing I try to fill in the blanks.
So again what element are you disagreeing with me about? This forum isn't just a bunch of instructors theorising upon the nuance of page 123 of a POH. Wouldn't you agree that highlighting the snags for all is a good thing because here is the thing.... that guy who flew his new Cavalon 915... Err he didn't come and train with you in his 915 Cavalon, or me and maybe just maybe it was through a lack of knowledge??

If someone wants to charge for the work they do to improve flight instruction or make it organized I am happy to pay for it to become a better flight instructor. I feel that is part of the cost of being a professional flight instructor.
No argument from me about that and I've no idea why you have made that a point that I've even been debating. I haven't - all i said was that it flight safety shouldn't be hidden behind a paywall. You seem to think on April 11th all gyroplane pilots are in training and have access to all the information.

I have received more than my money’s worth with Gyropedia. Phil Harwood and I have different training philosophies and I can’t recall him ever sneering at that divergence. He has always been open to suggestions and thoughtful in his response.
I've never mentioned the Gyropedia or Phil Harwood in this or any other thread in this entire forum.

I feel navigation and flight planning are important skills for the sort of gyroplane flying I do. I fly near restricted air space and in busy complex airspace. I feel a greater emphasis should be placed on weather, navigation, flight planning, diversion, fuel management and emergencies by flight instructors in the USA than is called for in the practical test standards and by the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Arh and now you start to patronise because if you read post 25 & 27 in the question about pre-rotation you see my view is entirely similar. I just questioned the realism of doing all the above and the basics well in your 15 hours expectation from the FAA. I went on to say if you wanted a comprehensive course then at least set the expectation properly.....

The rest is just you saying you want to be better but without telling everyone how you are becoming better or what even needs to become better... perhaps its all just better and better everyday. What i need is one of those motivational posters...
 

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I just questioned the realism of doing all the above and the basics well in your 15 hours expectation from the FAA.
It's a regulatory legal minimum, not an expectation, and there are big practical and legal differences between those ideas.
 

Vance

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Can you highlight what part of the posts you've read from me that allows you to take a view that I have a different perspective on flight training from that which you've posted above?




Yep I feel not entirely dis-similar although given this is a gyroplane forum, it would be slightly dead if nobody expressed a view? Isn't this type of exchange the whole point of a forum and actually opening debate so others can engage also?



So again what element are you disagreeing with me about? This forum isn't just a bunch of instructors theorising upon the nuance of page 123 of a POH. Wouldn't you agree that highlighting the snags for all is a good thing because here is the thing.... that guy who flew his new Cavalon 915... Err he didn't come and train with you in his 915 Cavalon, or me and maybe just maybe it was through a lack of knowledge??



No argument from me about that and I've no idea why you have made that a point that I've even been debating. I haven't - all i said was that it flight safety shouldn't be hidden behind a paywall. You seem to think on April 11th all gyroplane pilots are in training and have access to all the information.



I've never mentioned the Gyropedia or Phil Harwood in this or any other thread in this entire forum.



Arh and now you start to patronise because if you read post 25 & 27 in the question about pre-rotation you see my view is entirely similar. I just questioned the realism of doing all the above and the basics well in your 15 hours expectation from the FAA. I went on to say if you wanted a comprehensive course then at least set the expectation properly.....

The rest is just you saying you want to be better but without telling everyone how you are becoming better or what even needs to become better... perhaps its all just better and better everyday. What i need is one of those motivational posters...
If you won’t see the divergence Phil; I won’t attempt to justify my opinion that we have divergent perspective.

I feel there is value in flight instruction as it is and want to make it better.

It appears to me you think flight instructors are doing a terrible job and gyroplane flight training needs to be completely changed.

If I have misinterpreted your perspective I apologize, it won’t be the first or last time.

I feel I am a good flight instructor and looking for ways to become better.

My flight instruction is constantly evolving with small changes in subtle ways based on what I learn each day.

I have no desire to patronize or debate you.
 

TyroGyro

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a recent detailed accident report, auto-translated from the Norwegian. Follows the usual 100% avoidable pattern...

Do gyros kill people, or do people kill gyros?

From my research I think the answer is incontrovertible.

A better question might be:-

Do gyros disproportionately attract the reckless, the rule-breakers and the risk-takers, and if so, why?
Or is the training, including ADM, woefully insufficient in many parts of the world?

It may also be helpful to incorporate some accident analysis into training programs.

Ask the student:-

What did he do wrong?
Could you imagine yourself doing something like that?
If not, why not?
 
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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,219
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
a recent detailed accident report, auto-translated from the Norwegian. Follows the usual 100% avoidable pattern...

Do gyros kill people, or do people kill gyros?

From my research I think the answer is incontrovertible.

A better question might be:-

Do gyros disproportionately attract the reckless, the rule-breakers and the risk-takers, and if so, why?
Or is the training, including ADM, woefully insufficient in many parts of the world?

It may also be helpful to incorporate some accident analysis into training programs.

Ask the student:-

What did he do wrong?
Could you imagine yourself doing something like that?
If not, why not?
At the risk of further derailing this thread I read the report and I don’t understand the accident sequence.

How close to the thunderstorm did they get?

What would cause an MTO Sport to spin?

How would that lead to a collision with terrain?
 

TyroGyro

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
124
Location
Liverpool, UK
Aircraft
MTO Sport
Total Flight Time
110
Vance,

50 MINUTES flying in the past twelve months. Total hours fewer than some who have yet to solo, most of it in the distant past.

An international flight into marginal and deteriorating weather, with a passenger, across mountains and valleys.

Insufficient weather enquiries. No radio calls or squawk. No flight-plan. Disregarded advice from a more experienced pilot.

Overweight on takeoff. Finally attempted to avoid weather by flying towards rising terrain....


When I read these accident reports, I often don't need to get to the end, before I shake my head with...

"What was he thinking?"

Would I have even taken-off in these circumstances?


If there is ANY doubt, there is NO doubt....
 
Last edited:

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,219
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Vance,

50 MINUTES flying in the past twelve months. Total hours fewer than some who have yet to solo, most of it in the distant past.

An international flight into marginal and deteriorating weather, with a passenger, across mountains and valleys.

Insufficient weather enquiries. No radio calls or squawk. No flight-plan. Disregarded advice from a more experienced pilot.

Overweight on takeoff. Finally attempted to avoid weather by flying towards rising terrain....


When I read these accident reports, I often don't need to get to the end, before I shake my head with...

"What was he thinking?"

Would I have even taken-off in these circumstances?


If there is ANY doubt, there is NO doubt....
I feel I can understand some of the mistakes he made to get to the accident site and I can think of several others.

How close to the thunderstorm did they get?

What would cause an MTO Sport to spin?

How would that lead to a collision with terrain?

In my opinion without an end to the story the story loses a lot of value as a teaching aid.
 

Philbennett

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
296
Location
London
It's a regulatory legal minimum, not an expectation, and there are big practical and legal differences between those ideas.
Yes I understand the nuance - I just question its reality and also the way in which that number got generated outside of a random number generator. It remains unhelpful as it inevitably creates an expectation in the mind of the student.
 
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