Help - Gyros can I build ?

sargan

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I am researching what I could build in UK .... from a kit.

Much of the information I find seems to be circular ..
... from BRA site " all "new" machines must be sold as kits for assembly by the purchaser and that the builder must do 51% of the construction."

Now I know this is not up to date, but presumably things have not gone the other way and blocked >51% kit build.

Several sites point me to "Gary Layzelle Gyrocopters" ... which is a dead site, been advised he has now left the UK.

One site (Gyro experience) extolls Cricket AV18 ... and has a link to http://www.gyrokits.com ... another dead site.

Several sites detail Merlin Benson ... & Merlin Montgomorie links ...both sites redirect to http://www.gyrocopters.co.uk/
(I'm not sure if this is a Gary Layzelle site) ... but email, forms & phone numbers on this site don't work.
It advertises the "Dave Organ book" as his 'new book' ........ as that book came out in 2002 appears site may simply be another old non-updated site.


From what I can ascertain form those that have been helpful so far, you can now only build approved kits ... only 2 approved kits are AV18 cricket (no longer trading ) and RAF200 ... wrong end of scale for me.

Perhaps if I list some specific Q's .... (all for UK)


# What kits can I build
# Do they have to be type approved
# If not type approved can you still build as one-off (51% rule)
# Can you still build off plans
# If you have an EU manufactured kit (approved in other EU countries) could you build that in UK .....
# Regarding EU kits Q ... if you did build an EU kit, can you build as a one off and get it inspected & permit to fly ... or do you have to go through type approval.


(my last 2 Q's arise due to the Aviomania GS range which are getting great reviews)

Can anybody help with any information.
I have reached out to LAA to see what advice I can get there.
 

Aviomania

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Hello Rick. Thanks for your kind words.

the cricket and Merlin all got accepted under grandfather rights when the BCAR section T regulation was adopted in the UK. as far as factory built you can only get the Autogyro brand and magni as they are section T approved.

We as Aviomania are not planing at the moment to get section T apruval as it is a long procces, need a UK partner and cost much more than other countries.... just to be able to sell in the UK.

now.. as far as kits... you eather need to build one of the old designs that have grandfather rights in the UK... or you need to talk to LAA.

LAA CAN sponsor a kit to be built.... but you have to convince them to do so!!!

I had someone interested in importing Aviomania in the UK and was going to work together with me and LAA ( Andrew i think)... but it never worked out......

the thing you should do is talk to LAA and show them what you want to built. If the kit have any other European approval the LAA should be able to sponsor it.

Good luck!!

P.S. if you need any more info on aviomania email me.
 

sargan

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I'll try what you advise ... and contact LAA

Has there been any 'history' of LAA sponsoring a kit ? .... and what exactly does that mean, is it like a plane kit build ... they inspect you build it and examine on completion as a one-off kit ?

By the way ... been swapping mails with many people ... they all seem to agree on one thing, that the Aviomania G2sa 'could' be a great future for UK kit build.
 
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Aviomania

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never been done before for a gyroplane... but is the same process as the fixed wing kit built aircraft. Once the kit is accepted then more of the same kits can be built.

UK authorities are scared of the gyroplanes... so if you do not want yo buy the expensive approved gyros or built the old kits... then you need to push a little. If you choose a kit that will make them feel "safe" they might go ahead and approve it for 51% built
 

Resasi

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LAA website.
http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/Beginners Guide/main.html

Francis Donaldson is the top man. He might not however be overly enthusiastic, but I may be doing him an injustice, but he should be able to tell you what is the latest situation.

LAA and CAA are not scared, just rather cautious, in the past the gyro safety record achieved a certain notoriety, with high accident/fatality numbers for hours flown. This has improved considerably.

Due to upcoming issues with integrated European Licensing there have been a number of changes that are still in progress, among them the devolution of responsibility from CAA, with gyros, possibly to LAA

Yes the cost of certifying aircraft in the UK is expensive very detailed and a deterrent to the manufacturer if the market might not justify the expense. Will Garton-Jones was interested in trying that Nicolas.

Single seat numbers in the UK have plummeted and at the moment are very low indeed while sales of factory two seaters are very good. Garry Layzelle is not in business in the UK any more.

Building, training on kits, and particularly gyros, can be a long process over here. Not that it cannot be done but it will require a great deal of persistence and patience. Weather, availability of instruction on single seaters, and compliance with the regulations have proved to be quite daunting.

If you feel you are up to the challenge go for it and try and see if the LAA would allow you to build the Genesis, a good choice, or, buy an existing single, Merlin Cricket LA-18 do it up get it inspected and permited then go from there, or if you have money, lots of money, go the two seat route.

Nicolas is I believe a qualified aviation engineer, produces some excellent plans, and could probably explain his design criteria to the LAA in the detail they require. His machine has been approved in certain EU countries though that alone has not been accepted as sufficient over here. I believe that at the moment at least two quite major gyro manufacturers are in the process, for selling factory builds. As an individual home build kit it might well be possible to do it easier
 

sargan

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I have swapped a number of mails with Will Garton-Jones, and had some good but not encouraging information.
He is certainly of the opinion that the Aviomania G2sa design could be a very good choice 'if' it were approved.

I'll see where I can get with LAA.
 

wnwgj

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I had hoped that Andrew Lysser might be willing to take on importing and obtaining certification for the G1sB - but from Nicolas' note above, that appears not to be happening. I've been round the loop investigating this quite a few times and there is not really a short-cut available other than to buy a machine with grandfather rights like the Merlin or Cricket or a MTO or Magni. The Cricket is OK and close to being Section T compliant. One example of the latest AV-18 (G-CBWN) actually did pass Section T I believe. The Merlin is not Section T compliant and would take a lot of work to make it so I'm told. After all my investigations, I have come to the conclusion that the best option is to "bite the bullet" and go for full Section T certification for the factory built G1sB, possibly the 912 perhaps with a minor mod to carry a small amount of luggage. As the machine is already BUT certified in Germany, it should already pass most if not all of the Section T tests. Just needs somebody to actually do it! Big question is how big that market in the UK really is......
 

SandL

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Before biting the bullet

Before biting the bullet

Just before you commit you will also need to consider the training aspect.
Sorry you will find hurdles all along the way literally every step of the way so best to look very carefully before you leap
a few extra things you may need to consider
who will train you ? you may need to do a 2 seat course first, how will you solo in a 2 seat... by that I mean I believe the hull of many 2 seat training machines are not insured... so you either need your own (or shared) 2 seat machine or deposit a lump of cash to cover the post solo/ pre licence flights.
then who will train you on a single seat (handling is quite different). there are not many single seat instructors, but I don't even think it's as simple as that. You will have to have 5 hours differences training "by someone who has flown your particular machine" not your type , the actual one...... who in the Uk has done that ? and who will give him the differences training.( this is the way the law was written , not sure if it has changed. Tom at the BRA may know (or probably Leigh on the forum).
By law you will have to have 3rd party insurance once flying. which company will insure the machine, it can be hard getting insurance for existing flying Crickets, RAF and Merlin, not at all sure how they will approach a new kit.
I'm not negative, I certainly want to see more single seats flying around , I just want to give you a heads up that finding a kit and getting approval is not the end of the issue. I guess your aim is to build a kit, get training and fly it here in the UK, if that is the case it's worth researching the project end to end. Another issue maybe finding an airfield with a hard runway in the south that will allow single seat training. single seat training involves a lot of runway hogging wheel balancing, hops and rotor handling. most GA airfields can get busy at the week ends with the perfect customer who lands has a burger the leaves.
There are a few places around, but you will also need a trailer and an instructor willing to travel to those places. Henstridge and Pembrey both spring to mind, you will probably be better placed up north.
3 of us with kit built gyros currently fly from Draycott farm in Wiltshire near M4 jct 15, you are of course most welcome to visit Viv the RAF owner is a very wise gyroplane inspector who will also be able to talk you through the entire process of building and training.
best of Luck , please keep us informed on your progress
Peter
 

Resasi

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Good comments from Peter. Yes the single seat issue is tricky but is ongoing between Phil Harwood who is on the BRA committee for Safety and Training and Richard Craske CAA liason on Gyros. It is hoped that present anomalies can be resolved.

Andrew does appear to have changed his stance with regard to instructing on single seat gyros so there are now potentially two single seat Instructors in the South. At the Instructors meeting in November last year he declined to offer single seat instruction, at the recent meeting at the light aircraft show at Poppham he told me he now is considering it. He is presently operating with the gyro group at Chiltern Park, and I have spoken with some of them and there is interest in flying single seat gyros in addition to their two seat factory builds.

I would imagine that were a group of pilots to get together in a syndicate it might be possible to get a Genesis approved in the UK. That could then possibly be used as a single seat training machine by an interested instructor, and used by other individuals. If it were first certified as a kit, this might then assist in later certification as a factory build.

To certify a new machine in the UK for commercial sale presently is prohibitively expensive and there must be a market to justify it and probably why Andrew has not pursued it. With the present state of the single seat scene that appears to be unlikely for anyone to try it commercially at this stage. For the individual builder I cannot comment as it would depend on Francis Donaldson of the LAA and what he thinks, and he should be approached. To have plans to show him, and for Nicolas to be prepared to answer his questions on design, materials and testing would I think be absolutely necessary before he could be expected to make any comment.

I do think that this may well be a way to invigorate the single seat scene over here in the UK as the Genesis has a proven performance with various engines, 503, 532/582, 912, and would be stable enough and lively enough to appeal to those two seat gyro pilots looking for a single seat sport gyro for a days fun flying rather than cross country touring. I have not flown it but have flown the Bensen Merlin Cricket and LA-18, and the Genesis does appear to be potentially more stable than any of them. Only Ken Wallis's machine exhibits that sort of hands off stability. With none of the above single seaters I have flown would I have released the controls in the air with any confidence at all.
 

sargan

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There are so many obstacles ... no wonder Gyros are fading away.
I'll keep researching.
 

Resasi

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There have been obstacles in most people's gyro journey. Mine was strewn with them, and for others I know, it certainly was not easy at all. Three people I knew personally died in them, but then if you let that stop you it is a probably a good indication that this sport may not be for you.

It requires money, patience, care and attention to detail, patience, some aptitude, patience, average intelligence, patience, professional instruction, a large desire to fly gyros, and did I mention patience. Oh, and along with patience also read perseverance as those two go together in this sport. :)

For those who do get to fly gyros, I believe all would recommend it as having been well worth all the efforts made. For myself, as an aeronautical experience it rates very high on my list.
 

Resasi

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It certainly helps.
 

SandL

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persistance

persistance

there will be multiple obstacles thrown in the way ... a bit like life in a flight sim you eventually become convinced that there is a man in another room throwing switches just to make it as hard as he possibly can.
Just 1 example ... an accident happened, my instructor decided not to train anyone anymore unless he set up a limited company then employed him to teach me, I had to become a director and share holder of that company, thus sharing liability !
and that is just one example about jumping through hoops
there are many, many more !
but with persistence and patience you will get there
 
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Im in uk to

Im in uk to

Yes I understand what your saying, Im looking for a kit or plans to. did you ever get any help. and if so maybe you can help me.
 

SandL

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400hrs (4,000 instructional launches) gliding, 200 fixed wing, 100 gyro
My suggestion is , take a trial lesson in a 2 seat machine, see if you like it .. then contact Viv or Tony Melody and talk through the options of building or even simpler buying a second hand machine and rebuilding. the tail number ( registratioin is what you are after , you will then technically be repairing or renovating rather than building from scratch, this will make the paper work much easier, but you will still have a training issue to resolve.
best of luck and please , please keep us informed, we will help where we can.
Peter
 
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