Gyro Altitude Restrictions

theschultz

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Airplanes have altitude restrictions. 500' over sparsely populated areas and 1000' over densely populated areas. Since we fly (or soon will!) gyroplanes, do we have any altitude restrictions? Are we required to or is it suggested we fly standard traffic patterns at airports?

:help:
 
Same altitude rules as airplanes (500 ft from any person, structure, vehicle, or vessel; 1000 feet above highest obstruction within 2000 feet laterally; always high enough for a safe landing in case of engine failure, etc., etc.). It's all in 91.119. The exceptions for helicopters are not applicable to gyroplanes.

There is an advisory circular about patterns at uncontrolled airports that provides advice for gyros:

http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGADVISORYCIRCULAR.NSF/0/74c9017c9457e4ab862569d800780551/$FILE/AC90-66A.pdf

Check part 9(a)(3); avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic until turning final for the active runway. Of course, at a towered airport, you can work out whatever procedure you and the controllers are both comfortable with.
 
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Unless you are flying a Part 103 gyroplane, in which case there are no altitude limitations. The only operational limitations for Part 103 Ultralights are:

Sec. 103.9 Hazardous operations.

(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates
a hazard to other persons or property.
(b) No person may allow an object to be dropped from an ultralight
vehicle if such action creates a hazard to other persons or property.


Sec. 103.11 Daylight operations.

(a) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except between the hours
of sunrise and sunset.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, ultralight vehicles
may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official
sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset or, in Alaska, during the
period of civil twilight as defined in the Air Almanac, if:
(1) The vehicle is equipped with an operating anticollision light visible
for at least 3 statute miles; and
(2) All operations are conducted in uncontrolled airspace.


Sec. 103.13 Operation near aircraft; right-of-way rules.

(a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance
so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all
aircraft.
(b) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates
a collision hazard with respect to any aircraft.
(c) Powered ultralights shall yield the right-of-way to unpowered
ultralights.



Sec. 103.15 Operations over congested areas.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a
city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.


Sec. 103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B,
Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area
of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior
authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

EFFECTIVE DATE NOTE: Amdt. 103-4, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17, 1991, revised
Sec. 103.17 effective September 16, 1993. The text of Sec. 130.17 in effect
until September 16, 1993 reads as follows:

Sec. 103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within an airport traffic
area, control zone, airport radar service area, terminal control area, or
positive control area unless that person has prior authorization from the air
traffic control facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

[Doc. No. 23708, 50 FR 9259, Mar. 6, 1985]
 
caution-author in one of those moods

caution-author in one of those moods

Fair warning - comments only a lawyer could love will follow:

Unless you are flying a Part 103 gyroplane, in which case there are no altitude limitations. The only operational limitations for Part 103 Ultralights are:

* * *

Sec. 103.15 Operations over congested areas.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a
city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.


Sec. 103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B,
Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area
of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior
authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.
This raises amusing questions of how you look at it:

1. If you can't be somewhere at all, at any altitude, is that an altitude restriction? Could you taxi through at zero feet. . .?

2. The FAA stops regulating at the top of Class A airspace, FL600 (per FAR 71.33(a)), so if you can get up higher than that over a city in your ultralight, would you be legal?

3. Is this the same as a minimum altitude limitation of 60,000 feet?
 
Dear Mr/Ms Shultz

Dear Mr/Ms Shultz

WELCOME TO THE FUN WORLD OF GYROCOPTERS!!!

Please contact your local CFI, Chris Burgess. DO whatever is necessary to get yourself down to the weight restrictions required by his aircraft, or maybe there is another guy that can get you up for training that I am not aware of up that way. Chris is very knowledgeable and will keep you on the straight and narrow, so to speak. I think his weight restrictions that affect you may be due to the rotor disk he uses, which is the maximum size built by the makers of Dragon Wings, which is only 27 feet. His Snobird has PLENTY of power, so I know that is not the issue. I think with the weight you are carrying it requires at least 28 feet if not 30' to fly you around easily in dual training, and land without undue stress on the axle shafts.

You are in the proximity of the WDC ADIZ NO FLY ZONE, and you need to REALLY undestand the NOTAMS, for presidential helo flights in and out of Camp David, etc., as well as the heavily trafficked triad of BWI, DCA, and IAD airports. You can get into some serious trouble if you dont' know what you are doing up there - it is NOT the same as being out in BF Utah, or Georgia like we are down here, where all you gotta look out for is Delta flight 12 to Hong Kong taking off from ATL. It is NOT so simple as 500 ft from structures, people and vehicles, etc. where you are, so get the best training from the best CFI available, and you will be OK.
 
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No doubt

No doubt

on the training. I am a PP ASEL and operate out of Baltimore Wash International and am thoroughly familiar with the SFRA. It's just that I see videos of gyros that prompt some questions.

I find it interesting that gyros have the same altitude restrictions and that we avoid the fixed wing traffic pattern (because we are slower, presumably).

How about landing on taxiways? Is that just a gray area and it is dependant upon the local culture and what is accepted locally?
 
High enuff to miss wotever your flyn over.
And remember, you only gota miss it. :)
An inch is as good asa mile. ;)
 
1. If you can't be somewhere at all, at any altitude, is that an altitude restriction? Could you taxi through at zero feet. . .?

The FAA (and NTSB admin law judges) take a dim view of smart-aleck attempts to jiu-jitsu the bridge. The regs used to say "no less than 500 feet over" and naturally, some wiseguy busted for flying under a bridge pointed out that he didn't bust the reg, literally. The FAA took a belt-and-suspenders approach and (1) violated the guy (he lost his appeal to NTSB, and had his tickets revoked) and (2) changed the reg so it's now no less than 500 feet from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure."

You certainly could taxi through Class B or try to. And they will yank or suspend your certificate, or try to.

Incidentally -- do something they don't like in an ultralight and they will still yank your non-ultralight tickets if they want to. That's the way they roll.

2. The FAA stops regulating at the top of Class A airspace, FL600 (per FAR 71.33(a)), so if you can get up higher than that over a city in your ultralight, would you be legal?

Nope. The far side of Class A reverts not to uncontrolled space but to Class E. This is controlled airspace in the same sense that airways are.

cheers

-=K=-
 
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1. If you can't be somewhere at all, at any altitude, is that an altitude restriction? Could you taxi through at zero feet. . .?

2. The FAA stops regulating at the top of Class A airspace, FL600 (per FAR 71.33(a)), so if you can get up higher than that over a city in your ultralight, would you be legal?

3. Is this the same as a minimum altitude limitation of 60,000 feet?
The interesting thing about ultralights is that they can legally fly 20 ft above houses and people, as long as the area is not a controlled airspace (which is true for the majority of the country), and the area is not congested. The FAA cannot do anything to unlicensed people who buzz other people's houses with their unregistered ultralights. But if you are a licensed pilot flying a registered aircraft, you better stay at least 500 ft from any person or structure...
 
I don't think that is what they meant when they wrote it.

I strongly suspect the FAA will interpret it as min 500ft in a registered aircraft and not at all in an ultralight.
 
The FAA cannot do anything to unlicensed people who buzz other people's houses with their unregistered ultralights...

Udi, not true. The FAA has a not-so-secret weapon for smart-asses like the guy who flew under the bridge. It's FAR 91.13(a), AKA the "David Martz Clause," which says..."No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another."

The ultralight version is 103.9(a)..."No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property."

Flying at 20' over homes in a UL certainly could be pursued as a violation of 103.9(a). My guess is the FAA would much rather spend its time going after pilots with certificates, since they can take punitive action through suspension or revocation. The process of actually bringing an unlicensed UL pilot to justice is probably a major PITA, because it would involve going outside the agency to find a punishment.
 
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content warning: practicality-impaired material

content warning: practicality-impaired material

I'm not sure everybody interpreted my attempts at humor as having any humor in it (always a risk).

I never would seriously suggest getting cute with the FAA's rules, especially since they have a delightfully vague one about careless and reckless operation that expands to include anything that upsets them at the moment. What amounts to an "undue hazard" also is one of those flexible concepts that tends to be interpreted in ways other than those favoring the pilot.

But in the spirit of my earlier jesting, if you taxi an ultralight along one of the roads near O'Hare International, where the Class B reaches down to the surface, but not actually on airport property, my guess is that you'll be in a heap of trouble from the Chicago P.D. for a traffic ticket in your unlicensed vehicle, and that the TSA would assume you're a terrorist, but that technically it's not "flight" and you're not in a movement area so the FAA shouldn't have much to say about it. The difference if any, of course, is only whether it's your driver's license or your flying privileges at stake, so I don't recommend it either way, but I find it entertaining to speculate about. In that same spirit, give a moment's thought also to jumping a BMX bike (under the ultralight weight limit) off a curb on the same street, so that you have a moment of "flight" in the Class B airspace; what rules have you broken, if any? What if you're on a moped wearing a skydiver's wing suit when you do it?

And as to above FL600, I didn't explain all the details previously. If one reads 71.71(a) generously, the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is in Class E airspace for a little while each day when Mars is in the sky over the U.S, (FL2600000000 or more) but I don't think that's the part of 71.71 in question. Section 103.17 seems to regulate ultralight flight only in that portion of the Class E airspace designated for an airport under 71.71 (b) which arguably ends at 18,000 or lower. Above FL600 is not Class E "designated for an airport", so there's a case to be made that ultralight flight is legal there (and on Mars as well, for that matter). If anybody manages to get up there (or to Mars), please let me know, and be sure to post pictures!
 
On A Similar Note

On A Similar Note

A couple of weeks ago we had some Homeland Security Agents converge on us out at Front Range airport "because we had the hanger door open". Wanting to know about Gyros and who is flying these potentially (could be used for the wrong reason) cool looking aircraft. Dr. Bill Clem ended up showing them some videos and talking to them for about an hour. For me I like the fact there on the ball doing their job, keeping us safe. We all live in different times, what you could get away with 20 years ago is no more....Dick.......Words of wisdom.....(Never buy from anybody who is out of breath)
 
How about landing on taxiways? Is that just a gray area and it is dependant upon the local culture and what is accepted locally?

At our club airport (IGQ) the gyros can use the taxiways for TO & Lndg. The airport manager decided the gyros were in the way less with the F/W traffic that way.

This was after some of the club members had a discussion with the airport manager. I would not fly to another airport and start using the taxiway for landings and takeoffs.
 
Landing

Landing

At our club airport (IGQ) the gyros can use the taxiways for TO & Lndg. The airport manager decided the gyros were in the way less with the F/W traffic that way.

This was after some of the club members had a discussion with the airport manager. I would not fly to another airport and start using the taxiway for landings and takeoffs.

That's good info to have.
 
Can work the other way too. We had so many restrictions slapped on us by the airport manager all but one gyro moved away. He lost about 15 gyros that were bringing him in good revenue and then the airport owner wanted to know why. Awkward questions were asked and he I think may now regret his previous attitude.
 
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