Gov. Sarah Palin

StanFoster

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John: The union guy that called me a scab.....DID NOT hurt my feelings....it made me ticked off. I could have called that union guy a name in retaliation...but I just came back with a tactful question that was not answered.


Stan
 

WaspAir

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LuftCarl: Funny how we can read the same thing and take opposite conclusions.
The historical expansion of the V.P. role under FDR through W as described in that piece all consists of tasks assigned by the President, and executive in nature. No President has the power to give the VP any broader role in the Senate.

The role presiding over the Senate sounds just like what I've been saying:

"President of the Senate. When presiding over the Senate, the vice president performs the duties of chairperson and cannot take part in any Senate debates. Nor can the vice president vote, except in the rare case of a tie. John Adams cast a deciding vote 29 times, more than did any other vice president.

The vice president enforces the rules established by the Senate for its own guidance. Senators can speak only after being recognized by the vice president or the president pro tempore."

Isn't that what I said in the post above, e.g., "cannot debate legislation", "cannot propose amendments to the Senate rules", "cannot even vote on legislation, unless there's a rare tie", "The chair recognizes the Senator from Maryland ..." ? What did you think I got wrong in my list?

Check how many times Cheney has actually voted in the last eight years (once in 2008, zero in 2007, zero in 2006, once in 2005, zero in 2004 ... he hasn't been a major force, that's for sure). And check how many sessions of the Senate have been conducted entirely without him in the room (or even in town). And check how many times Cheney has made a tactical choice not to recognize a Senator or has interpreted the rules to change a result in the Senate.

Cheney used his claim of a legislative position to escape obeying an executive order, and his contradictory claim of executive privilege to escape an obligation to reveal information. It's a loophole chasing game to keep administration secrets, nothing more. He's had no influence on the Senate operations, except to tell Senator Leahy of Vermont to go "f**k yourself", on the floor of the Senate (June 22, 2004) on the same day that the Senate passed the Defense of Decency Act. Pretty obvious that he's not setting the Senate agenda, isn't it?

Biden's been in the Senate for a very long time, knows the Senate rules, and has seen how they and the V.P. operate. I can't wait to see who'll be complaining if we have a Vice President Biden who starts asserting immunity from executive orders because he is a "legislator".
 
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WaspAir

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If you're reading those sources the way you're apparently reading my posts, that would completely explain why we disagree.

Here's what I said about the first article's description of the "Growth of the Vice Presidency" (note my words "as described in that piece"):
The historical expansion of the V.P. role under FDR through W as described in that piece all consists of tasks assigned by the President, and executive in nature. No President has the power to give the VP any broader role in the Senate.
And here's where I quoted directly from the second one:

The role presiding over the Senate sounds just like what I've been saying:

"President of the Senate. When presiding over the Senate, the vice president performs the duties of chairperson and cannot take part in any Senate debates. Nor can the vice president vote, except in the rare case of a tie. John Adams cast a deciding vote 29 times, more than did any other vice president.

The vice president enforces the rules established by the Senate for its own guidance. Senators can speak only after being recognized by the vice president or the president pro tempore."
And here's where I asked some direct questions:
Isn't that what I said in the post above, e.g., "cannot debate legislation", "cannot propose amendments to the Senate rules", "cannot even vote on legislation, unless there's a rare tie", "The chair recognizes the Senator from Maryland ..." ? What did you think I got wrong in my list?
If your response to all I've said is merely to challenge whether I read the things I quote and comment on, you're wasting my time. I'll overlook the insult, but my time has value.

Show me some event, other than a handful of tiebreaker votes over eight years, where Cheney has used "power" in the Senate, and we'll have something to discuss, and I might be inspired to reply. Otherwise, I've got other things to do.
 

Timchick

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I still say Biden is in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. During his debate with Palin he said, "All you have to do is go down Union Street with me in Wilmington or go to Katie's Restaurant or walk into Home Depot with me, where I spend a lot of time........." Unfortunately, Katie's restaurant closed in 1990.
 

Jazzenjohn

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McCain has it worse, He doesn't even know how many houses he has.

Palin too, since she forgot she supported the "bridge to nowhere".

That makes forgetting about some tiny resturant in Deleware seem pretty small.
 
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kc0iv

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McCain has it worse, He doesn't even know how many houses he has.

Palin too, since she forgot she supported the "bridge to nowhere".

That makes forgetting about some tiny resturant in Deleware seem pretty small.
John,

I thought you were better than this. Or is it you listen to the left wing so much you don't look anything up for yourself.

The number of home(s) John McCain owns is NONE. See: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12700.html

I think it's a little more than forgetting a tiny restaurant. See: http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/secondhelpings/2008/10/joe-gives-delaware-shout-outs.html Read a few of the comments.

Leon
(kc0iv)
 

LuftCarl

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The President of the Senate (aka the VP) presides over the Senate much as the Speaker does over the House. He has the authority to call for votes, recognize and give the floor to specific Senators and ignore those he does not wish to have address the Senate. He can set the agenda for any given day he chooses to show up and can arrange and coordinate support or attacks on any pending legislation.

I would say that gives him or her a great deal of influence beyond breaking a tie. One of our early VP's (I forget which one now, but would be happy to find out) actually wrote the procedures and rules of conduct for the Senate.

Biden's understanding of the powers of the VP is about as deep as what most people learn in their 8th grade Constitution class.
 

WaspAir

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There is isn't a whit of substance in anything the VP can do - it's just acting as the moderator. He can be overruled by the Senators if they don't like the way he applies the rules (there have been many cases of that over the years), which makes his theoretical power in reality completely illusory. Nobody has pointed to anything Cheney has done to influence the course of debate or success/failure of proposed legislation using his "powers" as presiding officer, other than his tiebreakers, averaging less than once per year over the entire Bush/Cheney era. Biden was right that the only substantive power the VP has, and the only thing that can't be overruled, is tie-breaking. Biden has spent decades speaking, offering motions, debating, using procedural tactics, and voting in the Senate; Palin, in contrast, has zero experience in the Senate, and famously remarked a few months ago that she didn't know what the Vice President's job is. If you think she knows more about how procedure works in the Senate, then your partisanship has outstripped common sense.

You might have been referring to Thomas Jefferson, who wrote a manual for how to run parliamentary debates two hundred years ago. That's an 8th grade bit of knowledge. It's a nice little work, and like Roberts Rules of Order has some legacy value, but it is not the Senate Rules. The Senate makes and adopts those itself, and has a Rules Committee to propose and consider new rules and amendments (the V.P. is not on that committee, or any other committee for that matter). The committee that put together the September, 2007 revision to the Standing Rules was:

COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California, Chairman
ROBERT C. BYRD, West Virginia
DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut
CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois
E. BENJAMIN NELSON, Nebraska
HARRY REID, Nevada
PATTY MURRAY, Washington
MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas
ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
TED STEVENS, Alaska
MITCH MCCONNELL, Kentucky
THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas
C. SAXBY CHAMBLISS, Georgia
CHUCK HAGEL, Nebraska
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee

There's no Cheney in that list, because he isn't entitled to be on it. The V.P. doesn't even attend committee meetings for any of the committees, where much of the real work of the Senate takes place. He often doesn't attend the general sessions.

If your biases make you want Biden to be a dummy about the Senate where he's worked for decades, and the self-professed hockey mom to be a legislative procedural genius, you're entitled to those views. I'm tired of arguing that the world is not flat, and invite anybody else to have the last word.

See you all in the air; I'm back to flying topics.
 
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LuftCarl

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You are free to believe whatever you want, and you clearly have heartburn regarding Cheney. I'm talking about the VP position in general. It is also more than obvious why a democratic majority in the Senate would be pissed about a VP getting involved in Senate business that is from the opposing party, even when he is perfectly allowed to be as President of the Senate. There is also an obvious difference between tradition and law. Traditionally the VP just does the Presidents bidding although it is clear there is more they are allowed. The founding fathers didn't throw around titles (like President) lightly. If the VP of the country is President of the Senate, that is not a cerimonial title.

We both can pick and choose our sources, but the bottom line is in November Cheney will be out as VP and we will have to wait and see how Ms. Palin handles the position.
 

LGoodhind

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>Cheney will be out as VP and we will have to wait and see how Ms. Palin handles the position.

Yep- they'll turn it around any day now ... all kinds of build in traction with the whole "he pals around with terrorists" thing. If that doesn't work say he's Muslim. If that doesn't work say he eats snails. Nothing? Okay- have the guy who turned "swift boat" into a verb go on a book tour. What? Nobody believes that guy anymore because he's a proven liar?

I'm still waiting to hear an idea / any idea but all I hear coming out of Camp McCain is "be very afraid of that one" ... how are you guys going to rationalize it if team-R is the loser? Gonna blame ACORN?
 

LuftCarl

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I happen to be a firm believer in our system and if the majority of the country picks the wrong guy I live with it knowing I voted my convictions. What I find interesting is that all the people that screamed Bush stole the election in 2000 weren't able to unseat him 2004. It seems there are alot of people talking out of both sides of their mouth. Now that it looks like they aren't going to sweep to an easy victory this year either, they are more bitter than ever. Can't wait to see the venom when they lose another one. HA!
 

LGoodhind

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So Bud- are you saying you're okay with the Bush administration by-passing the FISA laws? Personally I have trouble trusting government- nanny or daddy state doesn't much matter; the end result is the same. BTW: The kool aid was grape flavored and it was a Democrat that got killed in the line of duty- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Ryan ...

>Now that it looks like they aren't going to sweep to an easy victory this year either, they are more bitter than ever.

What would you consider a sweep Carl? Just wanted to get the number out there before the election... =) ... maybe we can get an electoral college betting pool started. http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Personally I haven't seen the bitterness you're talking about except at the recent McCain events ...

"And we're all wondering why that Obama is where he's at, how he got here. I mean, everybody in this room is stunned that we're in this position," http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/10/mccain.crowd/

... including shouts of "traitor" and "kill him." Anybody else feel uncomfortable with that? Any of you non-PC guys out there want to share your wit and wisdom on the topic?

Jeepers- the guy has been out there mouthing off for 20 months and two books as the approval #'s for the current administration and it's congressional cotillion fell through the floor ... it's amazing just how mysterious it all is.
 

BUD ONEAL

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Larry,
I told him not to drink the grape koolaid!
Seriously I don't believe in all the kill him stuff. I don't believe that Obama has what it takes to run our country and and do it right. I don't know if Mccain can do it or not also,However sara can do it, and would. Also she is very pretty! If we do go down would'nt it be nicer if the President looked better?
 

Resasi

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Has happened throughout history because a lot of the electorate, not to put too fine a point, or offend, are pretty ignorant.
 
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