GOLDEN BUTTERFLY SUSPENSION DESIGN

Getmobile

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I am after photos, plans would be good, and can someone tell me the diameter and the material used,ie;4130 or alloy,and shock absorber type in the design of the GOLDEN BUTTERFLYS suspension.
And i would like to thank all those that take the time to contribute,in advance.

Thanks The Tool
 
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Getmobile

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Nobody, can help me? I dont want to copy, just get some sizes and ideas, mine will be streamline and my dimensions to suit my build.

Thanks The Tool
 

wolfy

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If you are going to do A arm suspension, make sure you don't do it like the butterfly's and put the stub axle on a leg down below the A arms Its putting an unwanted twisting motion on the A arms. Rather try to set the geometry so that your stub axle is between the two A arms or at least no lower than the lower A arm.
I never liked the butterfly suspension for that reason, they would never handle real off airport use.

wolfy
 

jm-urbani

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sorry not to be able to help you, I think in addition that the golden age of home building is behind use especially in the gyrocopter world where there are very few tandem plans available .

as for the size of the tubes I think that you can use the same tube in use in any gyroplane in use either in aluminium 2017 or 6061 either in 4130 aviation steel, but first you have to say what are you building ( a mono a twin, which weight ?)

fr a mono we have the size of the Dominator legs that have proven to be resistant enough with all the stop and drop landings that have been done

for a twin dom's plan are not circulating so some could mabye say which tubes he uses on it's dom tandem ... if you get a replie coz honestly when it about home building you won't gert a lot of replies there, people are not really interested in home building anymore, replies often come from non home buiders who will tell you that the art of gyroplane frame designed reserved to experts ... ( I was told this here ...)

as for the shocks I think that it is the problem to find the right shock making it possible to get both a long travel and a tunable stiffness,

I don't know

I had been really interested about this system in the past but I have given up ...

in fact the system is quite simple, it work like a desk lamp that you can change the angle of the double arm without changing the angle of the lamp

lampe de bureau.jpg

when the suspension travel a lot, the wheels are keeping their angular position

the aim of this system is to get a long wheels suspension travel the problem I find that it gives you soft suspensions which is an issue when you are taxiing and taking of from a dented terrain .. the rotor does not like to shake too much ..

the only mean of doing would be to install a removable tightening cable that you could release in case you have to make an hard landing

this would also avoid to get a gear hanging like bollocks during the flight ...

all of this was too complicated for me , but I regret to be honest coz it was working obviously .. I should have went on ...

it is true that when you see those landing you say .. why not me ?

I hope you will find datas that I did not find myself at the time ..
 

jm-urbani

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If you are going to do A arm suspension, make sure you don't do it like the butterfly's and put the stub axle on a leg down below the A arms Its putting an unwanted twisting motion on the A arms. Rather try to set the geometry so that your stub axle is between the two A arms or at least no lower than the lower A arm.
I never liked the butterfly suspension for that reason, they would never handle real off airport use.

wolfy
yes wolfy you are right my friend , this one of the issues I could not solve when I wanted to built this gear , but on the other had it worked .. and Getmobile, like me back in times must wonder why are we sceptical ... ?

aviation is too classical ...

an other means of achivieng the same landings is to learn to make dynamic landings like you are doing in you vids... you descend steep and you pull the stick hard at the last moment and you land like an autumn fall ... but it requires to fly 8 hours every working day ... I have played this game in the past but bent several time my aluminium gear legs hahaha

I think that emergency landing training is something we have to do all the time, each time we fly we should train ... until we can lang like we stop when we are skiing ... you rush to the point you want to stop and at the last moment you stop ... we don't know how the brain can make it but is can ... it is clear that flyin 20 hours a year can't bring anyone the hability of using a gyro as you are doing ... as a second nature, a perfect man/machine couple ...

the point is that you are keeping your air speed and "brake" at the last moment without ballooning (high class)... the butterfly system is no loose the air speed and crash one the landing gear .. and this is dangerous coz you never know how are hard you are going to hit the ground when you don't have air speed to smooth your impact ..
 
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wolfy

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I think the double A arm suspension is probably a good thing for it's intended purpose, It's just that it wasn't implemented very well buy the butterfly design for anything other than smooth surfaces.

wolfy
 

Heron

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I am not sure what parts ate covered by patent and who owns it today! Mind you, that suspension was designed for a flying "car" and been tested with good results on the Golden and Monarch!
Also used on the SSC Flying Motorcycle!
 

jm-urbani

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Many people are too conformists in gyroplane and aviation ... and as soon as someone tries something new everybody starts saying that It won't work ..
obviously this system worked and goes one working .

I stopped speaking with a lot of friends about gyroplane design ... fed up to always get the same reply : my magni is perfect, my magni is stable, my magni is stable on my autogyro is fast , my autogyro is stable, my autogyro is fast,

as Wolfy says the point is to find out how larry managed to cope with the A shape bars tendency to pull the wheel ahead when the wheel go up ?
 
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Getmobile

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I would like to thank you all for your impute small or large it is all appreciated.

To Wolfy, yes thanks i had considered the torque from the the stub axle drop.

To Heron, patent only applies to commercial build one off for the individual don't apply,a design change of 10% or a noteable change in design is a considered a new design. But i do not want to copy it, just learn from the butterfly's design and faults.

To Jm-Urbani, i wasn't aware of the rough field problem, i will look into the shock absorber type used, do you know if it was an air shock they used?
Sceptics, critic's and know it all's abound,it is difficult to deal with them at times but hey, without forward thinking people there would be no Wright Brothers and we would still live in caves, rise above these negative people and design and engineer to your hearts content. Though I do enjoy constructive criticism.

I am designing/building a side by side offset seat arrangement,13b alloy rotary, there that should get the critics going.

Thanks The Tool
 
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WaspAir

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To Heron, patent only applies to commercial build one off for the individual don't apply,a design change of 10% or a noteable change in design is a considered a new design.
With several decades experience as a litigator in patent cases, I can tell you that you've got the law all wrong. In any event, that gyro was in public use so long ago that there can't be any significant term left in whatever patents they might have obtained.
 

Getmobile

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To Waspair, thanks for putting me right on that, is Australian law the same as we went to a lawyer 40 years ago and then did a more than 10% change to design with no major variation to concept,then successfully commercially marketed it.
Not saying your wrong just the opposite, always open to fair and reasonable comments.

Thanks The Tool
 

jm-urbani

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to waspair :

In the french law you can copy something patented for your own use, but you can’t copy for commercial reasons

To constitute an act of counterfeiting, use must be made on a commercial basis, defined as that which allows customers to enjoy so that the holder of counterfeit objects derives a source of profit from it for his exploitation ( French Cassation Court, April 29 1982).

I am not an American Lawyer (but a French one), but I am quite sure it is the same In the US law
 
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jm-urbani

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To Jm-Urbani, i wasn't aware of the rough field problem, i will look into the shock absorber type used, do you know if it was an air shock they used?

Thanks The Tool
about the dented field , the problem is that your rotor could rock on it's flapping axis and hit it's stops, this is what happens to any gyro on any dented terrain but is the suspension is too smooth it could amplify the phenomenon.

But all is a question of shock selection and adjustment

I don't know if larry neal was using air shocks unfortunately
 
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jm-urbani

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Hello Getmobile and Wolfy,

good to speak about home building, a bit

if you have a look to this picture you will see that the horizontal legs ( the 2 horizontal white V ) are attached on a universal joint

If I am interpreting correctly this picture it would "proove" that when the wheels are going high up, when landing hard, the wheels are also allowed to shitf a bit forward in order to follow the A leg travel ..

I also think ( but is is not) on the picture that a top view of the wheel would shew that the hoizontal legs are secured to the wheel at 2 points mounted of free axes that forces the wheel to stay parallel exacty the same way they are keeping vertical when going up .

of course I just reinvented the wheel ! just that I just realized that I should have noticed this long time ago ...

at the end of the day this in why threre are 4 horizontal legs on each side ..

that said it would be nice to find close up shots of the wheel hubs to see how Larry had constructed all his system

Capture d’écran 2020-05-07 à 13.21.26.png
 

WaspAir

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to waspair :

In the french law you can copy something patented for your own use, but you can’t copy for commercial reasons

To constitute an act of counterfeiting, use must be made on a commercial basis, defined as that which allows customers to enjoy so that the holder of counterfeit objects derives a source of profit from it for his exploitation ( French Cassation Court, April 29 1982).

I am not an American Lawyer (but a French one), but I am quite sure it is the same In the US law
That is most definitely not American law.

The concept applicable here is not counterfeiting (passing off false goods as if they were genuine, a trademark problem) but patent infringement. Even if there is no intent to copy one can still infringe a U.S. patent; if you innocently and independently invent the same thing but it has already been patented by someone else, your device is still an infringement. While copyright law does include a fair use exemption that in some cases will excuse non-profit use, patent law has no comparable provision.

Every U.S. utility patent concludes with a set of "claims", which are descriptions of the invention and serve the same function as the boundary description on a deed to land. Just as a landowner has the right to keep everybody (whether just one person or a large corporation, whether for profit or not) off his land, the patent owner has the right to keep everybody from using his invention as defined by the claims. Making, using, selling, or offering for sale anything that fits the claim description is an act of infringement, subjecting that person to an injunction and/or money damages. 35 U.S.C. 271 ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/271 ) . Note that the statute says nothing about personal use.

In the real world of commerce, patent litigation is so expensive that patent holders find it impractical to sue every individual who might infringe, but personal use is not a legal defense, and a successful suit could be brought if desired. (Also purely practical, the fundamentals of gyroplanes are so old that most pertinent patents will have expired by now anyway.)

As to any 10% change as suggested earlier, there is no such notion in U.S. law. If it fits the claims, it infringes, even if it has differences over the embodiments of the invention shown in the patent specification.

Here's a crude simplified hypothetical. Wilbur invents the airplane, and claims "An aerial conveyance comprising at least two lift-bearing wings, a fuselage, and an engine to provide thrust". His airplane is a wooden biplane with a 12 hp piston engine and a propeller. Suppose the Patent Office grants that patent, but three years later Pierre Airbus builds an A-380 and flies it to New York. Pierre infringes Wilbur's patent, because the A-380 fits within the claims, even though it is a pressurized metal monoplane with jet engines (it still has wings, a fuselage, and at least one thrust-providing engine as set out in the claim). Pierre can apply for his own patents for the improvements he invented, but his plane still infringes Wilbur's rights.

If Otto invents a wooden biplane glider, he doesn't infringe because his craft, which has wings, has no engine to provide thrust.
If Ferdinand invents an airship with a fuselage and engines to provide thrust, he doesn't infringe, because it has no wings.
Neither of these two satisfy all the claim limitations, and that's the critical legal difference. There is no practical way to determine a 10% difference, and it's not to be found in the law. Sometimes people attempt to come up with a rule of thumb to simplify things for laypeople, but that one doesn't work.

Thanks to international treaties and harmonization laws, every commercially significant nation on the planet uses this sort of claim analysis to determine infringement.
 
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Vance

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if you have a look to this picture you will see that the horizontal legs ( the 2 horizontal white V ) are attached on a universal joint

If I am interpreting correctly this picture it would "proove" that when the wheels are going high up, when landing hard, the wheels are also allowed to shitf a bit forward in order to follow the A leg travel ..

I also think ( but is is not) on the picture that a top view of the wheel would shew that the hoizontal legs are secured to the wheel at 2 points mounted of free axes that forces the wheel to stay parallel exacty the same way they are keeping vertical when going up .

of course I just reinvented the wheel ! just that I just realized that I should have noticed this long time ago ...

at the end of the day this in why threre are 4 horizontal legs on each side ..

that said it would be nice to find close up shots of the wheel hubs to see how Larry had constructed all his system

View attachment 1147226
It appears to me the axel would maintain its vertical track front to back as it went through its travel and move in converging arcs as viewed from the rear.

The challenges with the gear I have seen is that the gear makes anything but a stop and drop landing challenging.

This was managed with a cable so the suspension travel could be limited unless needed for a vertical landing.

It appeared that in the full droop position there was little suspension travel left to manage rough terrain.

I feel The Butterfly suspension just needed more development as to spring rates and preload.

The pivots were not particularly stout.

The Sport Copter II has nicely developed long travel suspension that appears to me to work very well.
 

jm-urbani

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Get sorry for polluting your post with legal considerations ... but I am a curious lawyer ignorant od American law

waspair thanks for those explanations

but wilbur invent a the airplain with an engine etc .. he patent it ... and his neighbourgs is jealouse and build the same airplane and fyies is for fun without selling tickets or selling the air craft to anybody , what happens if wilburt sue him for patent infrigement ?
 
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