Gasoline Tips

NoWingsAttached

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FIRST: Resasi, I met you at Bensen Days, but didn't know who you were! DO you remember me???

SECOND: I have been out of this thread for a long time, due to Bensen Days festivities. I just got around to mellowing the post #50, thanks for the suggestion. Sometimes I say some mean things cuz I get too many beers in my belly and I am addicted to the comraderie or RF herelate at night and just want to say stuff. I don't really care at that point what it is I say usually. I just start going off like...well, like a moron.

THIRD: I can't even believe it every time this thread pops back up. I kinda started it as a farce, then I got passionate, then I got goofy, and then I started to actually do research to find some facts. You know what? It is all still the same to me. I still believe we were had. I can not take it, the coincidences are toooooooo much. You have to really be blind mice to think this is all coincidence.

I used to wonder how this happened. My god, man, most businesses operate on a 7% profit margin to do well. When gas prices first doubled, I did the math. The cost of producing and delivering a gallon of gasoline remained virtually unchanged. Profits for the franchisees remained virtually unchanged.

SO. Take the price of crude at $16.00/bbl, and figure the Exxons were doing a handsome profit for 3 decades. The price of the crude affected the bottom line by what, 20%? Let's be generous and make it 25%. You double that, making crude $32/bbl. Does that justify doubling hte cost of a gallon at the pump? HELLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOO???? No. By all accounts, if this were TRUELY a competitive commodity, it would mean an incremental increase, not an exponential increaze.

some just don't see the handwriting on the wall.

Gas, pre Bush era (not blaming him, just setting this in time), was steady at ~ $0.80/ gal. Let's say crude accounted for $0.20/g. Let's give the oil companies a HEALTHY $0.10/gal profit, and say production, taxes, delivery and franchisee profits account for $0.50/gal. None of that changes, but the price of crude doubles and goes up to $0.40/g cost. THe price at the pump SHOULD be $1.20 to $1.25/g. Instead it goes up to $1.60, with ALL of the excess profits lining the pockets of the few who have us by the kahunas. That is a leap from $0.10/g to $0.50/g - in one year. Quadrupled profits for a commodity that has been on the market for over a century, not a new dot com whatever. Whe is the last time the profits of the dairy farmers quadrupled? Never. Not in the entire history of man on earth. My Republican Right-wing friends said it was China gobbling up fuel, but the numbers clearly do not support that claim.

Then the price of crude climbs up to $48/bbl, and the price of gas at the pump should be, say $0.60 for fixed costs as above, and $0.60/g for the cost of crude, so where did we come up with $2.50/g????? That is like 50% profit margin for the Exxons, man!!! THis is BEFORE the investors went totally ape crazy on Wall Street over the commodites investments of crude. Now it is just nuts.

Is anyone going to sit back and say there is no price fixing? Is anyone going to insist that this is a truely free market economy? If that were truely the case, wouldn't some company be trying to undercut the others to get an edge somewhere? Somehow? how is it that every last single one of them changes their pricing over night, on the same night???? I had been expecting this for years, knowing that they were waiting for just the right combination of circumstances to pull the rug out from under us once again. That is the game. It always has been, it always will be. Some of the people are takers, but most of us are taken. What is sad is that so many are so easily fleeced, and still believe in "it", the system, and accept it at face value as OK, we have all the facts, we have all the numbers, everyone tells us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Yeah, I want to stir up stuff. Yeah, I am going off half-cocked much of the time, but it is good. It gets people involved, gets people talking, and gets people sharing ideas and truths, right or wrong.

I have to wonder, how much does it cost to transport crude to the US? Why is domestic fuel virtually the same price as fuel from crude that comes from half-way around the world? Therre are reasons for all of this. I just don't think we have the answers, any of us. All we can do is do or die, not question why. But I want to question it.
 
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NoWingsAttached

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LARRY

Nice find. THanks for the post to the article. I have been harping on the fact that crude needs to be restriced on the commodities market for years. Good to see some pols are finally listening to us. Even if it goes nowhere, at least there is some kind of awakening to this obvious fact. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN!!!!! EMAIL chain them to death!
 

NoWingsAttached

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Tim, having some kind of Forum gathering has been discussed before, at Mentone at least. Everyone thinks it a good idea. We are missing a lot of people that show up and we still can't put the names and characters together. We really need to make this happen next time, in some way or another.... One person suggested a name tag pocket pin with your Forum ID and real name on it, so when we walk around we can instantly recognize the tag itself, and go over and shake hands and say hello.
 

Resasi

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Tim you were pretty busy most times I saw you, either filming, marshaling, picking up rubbish or chatting to folks so didn't want to bother you.

The tag idea was a good one but seemingly never caught on, the Wauchula Moron shirt however was very much in evidence. Greg Spicola, Joe Pires, Ron Awad Super Dave and a few others we did meet and they were very friendly, Greg I met a lot of folks and am not sure exactly who you were however since you all seemed like pretty good folks it was a real pleasure.

My son and really enjoyed the visit, and I am glad to have made the trip over. I managed to get my son a ride with Dave and he really enjoyed his first gyro ride. He's been coming up with me since he was tiny in pretty much everything I have flown but did acknowledge this as very different and a real blast. He is pretty fired up and we hope to decide on a kit to start on real soon when he gets over to Orlando.

Apologies for the thread drift everyone.
 

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Bensen Days only happens once a year. Next time stop me and say hi. If I'm zooming by on the 4 wheeler close-line me to get my attention. :)
 

Resasi

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Tim, once tried to get your attention about last years Mentone, without success.:eek:hwell: next time perhaps.
 

lanichol

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The 2007 ENERGY IQ SURVEY

The 2007 ENERGY IQ SURVEY

It is worth reading

http://www.energytomorrow.org/energy_issues/energy_iq/energy_iq_survey.html#13
http://www.energytomorrow.org/energy_issues/index.html

When asked which country was the largest U.S. supplier of oil, almost 60 percent chose Saudi Arabia, which is one of the largest suppliers, after Canada. Only one in 10 people correctly identified Canada as the largest supplier to the United States.
__________

Americans seriously overestimate the size of U.S. oil and natural gas companies relative to competing companies that are owned by foreign governments.

When asked "What percentage of the world's 10 biggest oil and natural gas companies are owned and operated by foreign governments?," only two percent of respondents knew that all of the top 10 companies fall into that category.

Similarly, only eight percent knew that ExxonMobil, the largest U.S. oil and natural gas company, was not among the top 10 largest oil reserve holders. More than one in three people (36 percent) thought ExxonMobil was among the top three largest companies.

Owning reserves is our future supply. Who do you want controlling our supply? An American company or a foreign country. If you want foreign countries, tax the heck out of the American company. When you make money in the oil industry, you have to put those dollars back in the ground by exploration & drilling. Oil in the ground is a much better investment than cash in the bank or paying stock holders.
____________

On profits, 42 percent of respondents guessed that the industry earned between 16 and 20 cents on every dollar of gasoline sales in 2006. In fact, the industry earned 9.5 cents – a choice (6 to 10 cents) selected by only 14 percent of respondents.

Does anyone know how much state & federal tax is on the fuel in your area?
How do you feel about raising this tax? Remember 4 years ago when Al Gore suggested raising the cost of fuel (by a new tax) to $3.00 to decrease use.

We would be at over $5 a gallon for diesel.
Larry
 
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Jazzenjohn

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A barrel of oil has a spot price of about $110 a barrel today

The national average for a gallon of gas is $3.365 today

The average cost for a barrel of oil in 2001 was $23.00

The national average for a gallon of gas in 2001 was $1.50

What is the gross profit on a barrel of oil today as opposed to 2001?

What is the gross profit on a gallon of gas today as opposed to 2001?

What is the cost to pump a barrel of oil out of the ground today as opposed to 2001?

What is the cost to refine a gallon of gas today as opposed to 2001?

Can you honestly answer these simple questions in dollars and cents?
 

gyromike

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John,

South Louisiana is oil country. Back when oil was selling so cheap, businesses were failing left and right down here. Same thing back in the early 80's. And not just oilfield businesses. It affected everything.
No one cared about the failing businesses and out of work people back then because oil was cheap.

Right now there is a great demand for oil. That's why prices are high. It has nothing to do with how much it costs to pull out of the ground relative to 7 years ago.

When demand is high, charge all the market will bear and not a penny less.
It would be foolish to do otherwise.
 

NoWingsAttached

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So the reports on Wall Street of Exxon profits quadrupling are a load of bunk. Larry, Larry, Larry... If what you state is correct, then Exxon only made 2 cents per dollar prior to that period.

What Larry seems to miss is the fact that big oil was in the process of driving down prices at the time when a lot of petro related companies were going broke, so that they could swallow the other little guys for pennies on the dollar, and then when the time was ripe - 2001 to present - they could drive up prices and reap quadruple profits, which is exactly what we see in the past few years.

Larry, the oil companies that went broke went broke because the other guys were driving them out of business. You really are missing the big picture, even if you state facts from now till the cows come home. Facts, figures, and statistics are just like the Bible. Even the Nazis can pull quotes out of it to serve their purpose and support their arguments.

People are interested in this stuff because it - like this thread - won't go away. And, like politics and religion is subjective to what you wish to believe in.

I believe that the initial upswing was a result of big oil taking advantage of ripe political and economic times. This was fueled and fanned by a major disruption of Middle East Politics - the current administration's (still as of yet properly explained and nearly completely illogical) invasion of Iraq, (at a time when we were cornering and about to capture the real culprit in Afghanistan).

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Definitely the surge in gas prices at the pump, which were not supported by a commensurate price of crude. Prices at the pump had doubled, starte precisely when Bush took office, and ending prior to 9/11. The price of crude was changing incrementally, while the price of gasoline at the pump was changing at a rate that produced a doubling of increase in profits for (Exxon) big oil. The price of gasoline at the pump went up far more than economic explanation could logically support. THere was no shortage. THere was no Middle East nor OPEC turmoil. THere was no hurricane to tear up refineries. THere was no shortage of anything, crude or refined product. THere was no massive upswing in demand anywhere in the world. There was no crazy gambling in crude futures on the market.

And there is no explanation as to what caused prices to explode over that period of time. As crude "zoomed" from $16.00per barrel to $19.00 bbl (at that time is caused huge shock waves in the news??? It sure got a lot of press for some strange reason), prices at the pump went from 80cents/gal to $1.25. Then crude started to really go up. It hit $28/bbl and prices at the pump hit $1.60. At that point, Bush's homestate airline buddies (Southwestern) did what no other airline did: They bought 5 YEARS worth of fuel. What insider info do you suppose THAY had? I know many in the industry who openly say that it was really odd for any airline to do that, so odd that SWA was the only airline in the world that did it in fact. But, hey, I know how you debunkers think, I know talking to you is like talking to a moose about scuba diving.

You just can't seem to see the forest for the trees, or in the aforementioned, the coral reefs in Australia.

So, what happened next....hmmm...we had bin Laden on the run in Afghanistan, we had committed our armed forces to a peace-keeping and search mission there, and out of the blue "we" decide to go after Saddam Hussein in Iraq, at a time when fuel prices are skyrocketing for the first time in 3 decades. The reason? Well, we were told he had close ties to al Qaida, and maybe even funded the terrorists. But Saudia Arabians actually did/do most of the funding for al Qaida. He had contact with Osama? So did half of the Middle East Nations. Why not? It is a good way to keep the peace - talk to the guy, keep your country on his good side, maybe he won't bother you. He got support for his organization, from Saddam? Hm, isn't that why we were already in Afghanistan? Because that is where al Qaida DEFINITELY was to be found, as well as the man himself - Osama? Osama, and al Qaida may or may not have had ties to Saddam, but we already had them corraled in the mountains in Afghanistan, so why redirect the majority of our troops away from this campaign at the most critical phase of it?

Enter "Weapons of Mass Destruction", the biggest lie of the decade. It was so flimsy, so fallible, and our excuses and logic so weak for invading Iraq that we had to cane-whip or closest allies into backing us up in this endeavor, and we had no support from the rest of the nations of the world who quickly saw through the thinly veiled truth. Something too many Americans can't seem to swallow - that their leaders of our military machine would deploy and allow our finest to be KIA'd for personal gain.

And the fuel prices marched on. And on. And on. As soon as the war broke out, the investment gamblers jumped on the band wagon, and Bush (the guy is such a wimp he couldn't even fire Rumsfeld) and the Republican house had no guts nor desire to put a speed bump on that sports car racing through the parking lot roundy-round of runaway energy profits. Even now the house drags its feet and stumbles at the footstep of what needs to be done now: Hedge the recession by ending cost of living inflation at one of its prime sources, the artificial inflation of consumer fuel prices. I know htis doesn't take care of the mortgage banking mess...yet another Bush administration banking and business scandals we have to pay for, like his father's era mess with the S&Ls, and hte Enron mess....yes, I know, you can't blame the administration for everything, but it sure bugs the heck out of me that this keeps happening when these kind of Republicans are in control of the laws and and processes that are supposed to be keeping these things in check and balance....

OK, enough babble from me for one day. Love and kisses to everyone here, and there. THis is just discussion, I don't dislike any of you for your views or perceptions or regurgitations... I rather look forward to being educated to your side, and further expounding from mine. Sometimes you guys make sense. Sometimes not.

Gas price increases since Bush took office do not make sense. Take away petroleum from the Iraq equation and the war makes no sense. THe excuses we were given turned out to be lies, flim flam, spin, exaggeration, heresay, and to this very day, after 5 long, brutal years, still no smoking gun. Nothing I've seen here yet can fill in the gaping holes in cause and effect and logical explanation as to what has happened to us since Bush took office. The fleecing of America happened, predictably as it could have been, and continues. And so long as you are complacent, accepting, and choose to turn a blind eye and a silent voice, and choose not to take a moment out of your busy day to email the president and your senators and your congressman, you will be raped. Hope you like it. It is what your "Silenced Majority" leaders want you to do. Shut up and take it. Or, worse, yet, speak up in defense of the rape and support it and try to convert the "rabble" to the cause.
 
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Jazzenjohn

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<South Louisiana is oil country. Back when oil was selling so cheap, businesses were failing left and right down here. Same thing back in the early 80's. And not just oilfield businesses. It affected everything.
No one cared about the failing businesses and out of work people back then because oil was cheap.>

I agree, At that time OPEC could exert a big influence on the price of oil because they can pump it out of the ground cheaper there than anywhere else. They can still make a profit at those prices.

The answer to that is not however to start a war.

Oil profits, from a war which restricts supply and drives prices up, promoted by a president whose campaign was funded primarily from oil companies, is BLOOD MONEY. Calling it anything else is a lie.

<Right now there is a great demand for oil. That's why prices are high. It has nothing to do with how much it costs to pull out of the ground relative to 7 years ago.>

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/03/business/worldbusiness/03cnd-oil.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

This clearly shows that a war in the middle east is the single biggest way to increase oil prices, and therefore profits.

<When demand is high, charge all the market will bear and not a penny less.
It would be foolish to do otherwise.>

I would normally tend to agree with that, but... often the oil that is pumped out of the ground here in America, or off our coastlines is Americas oil. Not oil companies oil. They don't have rights to the oil on public land or in public waters. They should be paying us for it. In the past (and now in some but not all areas) they pay a windfall profit tax whenever the price of a barrel of oil was above $40. It's a windfall now! If you harvested trees on public land you would expect to pay for it, why are they being allowed to avoid paying anything for the oil they pump out of public land and coastal waters? Are they being charged a fair price for the oil they take from us taxpayers?
 

gyromike

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John,

This is from the very article you linked to from the New York Times (not exactly symapthetic to the current administration):

"Since 2000, oil prices have more than quadrupled as strong growth in demand from the United States and Asia outstripped the ability of oil producers to increase their output.

The rising prices of the past decade failed to dent global economic growth as consumers absorbed the higher costs. Even now, with the United States economy slowing markedly, the trend has now slowed much. Global oil consumption is still expected to increase by 1.4 million barrels a day this year, driven by demand in China and the Middle East.

Still, today’s record is markedly different from the energy crises of the 1970s and 1980s. These were brought about by sudden interruptions in oil supplies, such as the 1973 Arab oil embargo, the Iranian revolution of 1979, or the outbreak of the war between Iran and Iraq in 1980."


No mention of the war driving up prices.
Supply and demand seems to be the key here.
 

Jazzenjohn

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I'm looking at the same chart as they are. I see the wars lining up exactly with the spikes in prices. Do you not see that as well? Why they chose to interpret it that way is their opinion, not mine.

< Global oil consumption is still expected to increase by 1.4 million barrels a day this year, driven by demand in China and the Middle East.>
This is a prediction of the future, not an explanation of the present situation.


I agree with supply and demand being the key, but focusing on the increased demand while ignoring the constriction and instability of the supply of oil due to our war in Iraq is complete nonsense.
 

Jazzenjohn

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He's my brother by another mother... ;)
 

kc0iv

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I'm looking at the same chart as they are. I see the wars lining up exactly with the spikes in prices. Do you not see that as well? Why they chose to interpret it that way is their opinion, not mine.

< Global oil consumption is still expected to increase by 1.4 million barrels a day this year, driven by demand in China and the Middle East.>
This is a prediction of the future, not an explanation of the present situation.


I agree with supply and demand being the key, but focusing on the increased demand while ignoring the constriction and instability of the supply of oil due to our war in Iraq is complete nonsense.


If the war in Iraq is the cause of the high oil prices then how do you explain the highest peak in April, 1980? There is no question anytime there is unrest anywhere in the world oil prices will rise. A simple review of the chart shows this trend.

Supply and demand is the key in any market. The market always looks toward what the expected future demand will be in setting prices. Be it selling or buying. That is basis business 101.

As Mike quoted "Since 2000, oil prices have more than quadrupled as strong growth in demand from the United States and Asia outstripped the ability of oil producers to increase their output. " If the oil output cannot (or will not) increase then price will increase. Which also is reflected in price of such things as gas prices. Gas prices are also high because of the failure to build new refineries.

You said: "If you harvested trees on public land you would expect to pay for it, why are they being allowed to avoid paying anything for the oil they pump out of public land and coastal waters? Are they being charged a fair price for the oil they take from us taxpayers?" You seem to discount the fact that the oil companies pay a lease the right for oil production on public land and water just like those that lease land for timber production.

One other question on offshore operation. How do you plan on forcing Cuba to pay for their operation just 60 miles off the FL. coast? See: http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/09/news/economy/oil_cuba/index.htm

Leon
(kc0iv)
 

Jazzenjohn

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<If the war in Iraq is the cause of the high oil prices then how do you explain the highest peak in April, 1980?>

The highest peak, which is now the second highest peak, coincides exactly with the Iranian revolution. The first major demonstrations against the Shah of Iran were in Jan. 1978. Iran became an Islamic republic under Ayatollah Khomeini in Apr. 1979. The spike in the price of oil began at the exact time as the demonstrations began.

< There is no question anytime there is unrest anywhere in the world oil prices will rise. A simple review of the chart shows this trend.>

I think it's completely obvious, but people are still blaming it on China and India. Right now, those two countries are are on every bodies sh1t list because they are "taking our jobs" making them an easy target. If you look at a chart of the increased use of oil, which has increased pretty much every year from 1900 till now, it doesn't correspond at all to the spikes in prices. Nobody wants to face the fact we invaded them for their oil and oil profits. No one wants to believe we, as a country, would do a thing like that. Most people want to latch onto any excuse for starting the war except the obvious truth. I would too, except that I believe it's
better to face an uncomfortable truth than comfort myself in a lie.

<Gas prices are also high because of the failure to build new refineries.>

Everybody keeps repeating this little factoid without ever researching it.
In 1980 we had about 325 refineries in the United States. We now have about 150. Why did we close over half our refineries if we're so short of them? The fact is that we had TOO MUCH capacity and they closed them. The remaining refineries are more efficient now. If they need more they'll build more, it's not as if they don't have the money to do it.

As far as the leases, I do know the oil companies pay something, it isn't much. I believe I read it's between 3-5 dollars a barrel. What bush has done is to remove the windfall profit clause and to use pre war estimates for oil prices. Do you think it's because he's absent minded? Or do you think it's because they gave him Millions of dollars to get elected? Do you think that removing the windfall profit clause is in the best interests of the people of the United States, or in the best interest of the oil companies? When bush leaves office next year, how will the oil companies reward him for screwing the American people?


<One other question on offshore operation. How do you plan on forcing Cuba to pay for their operation just 60 miles off the FL. coast?>
60 miles off the Fla. coast is only about 30 miles off the Cuban coast. A territorial waters question. Perhaps we should invade them too...?
 
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gyromike

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Wow.

George Bush must be a genius to pull all this off without the Democrats or the mainstream media or the U.N. figuring it out. Or...OR...maybe they're in on it too!!!

For Bush/Cheney to make this happen, they would have had to convince the whole world that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. The U.N. passed 17 resolutions against Iraq for violating the the cease fire agreements. So that means that the U.N. and the rest of the world was too dumb to catch on to Bush and figure out his diabolical plot and just went along with whatever he wanted. :rolleyes:

Then he had to convince Congress (including the angelic Hillary) to vote to authorize him to go to war. Apparently they ain't too bright cuz he out-maneouvered them too. :rolleyes:

Then he had to convince Saddam to kick out the U.N. inspectors because if he had let them in, no weapons would have been found and Bush's plan would have fallen apart. This was a critical juncture. So Bush convinced Saddam to kick them out in exchange for...living in a hole...evading our troops for fun and pleasure...standing trial for crimes against humanity? I guess Bush double-crossed him. Another one who was too stupid to catch on to Ol' Dubya. :rolleyes:

Not to mention coordinating the attacks on the WTC, etc., etc.

So Bush must be an evil genius who outsmarts everyone at every turn, or everyone is in on the Great Oil Conspiracy with him, or there really is no conspiracy.

Pick one. :)
 

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<Everybody keeps repeating this little factoid without ever researching it.
In 1980 we had about 325 refineries in the United States. We now have about 150. Why did we close over half our refineries if we're so short of them? The fact is that we had TOO MUCH capacity and they closed them. The remaining refineries are more efficient now. If they need more they'll build more, it's not as if they don't have the money to do it.

As far as the leases, I do know the oil companies pay something, it isn't much. I believe I read it's between 3-5 dollars a barrel. What bush has done is to remove the windfall profit clause and to use pre war estimates for oil prices. Do you think it's because he's absent minded? Or do you think it's because they gave him Millions of dollars to get elected? Do you think that removing the windfall profit clause is in the best interests of the people of the United States, or in the best interest of the oil companies? When bush leaves office next year, how will the oil companies reward him for screwing the American people?

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http://www.mms.gov/offshore/

5,898,098,118 Gulf Coast Offshore royalty (only)

Lease cost is significant. This is the price you pay by bidding to obtain the lease (per acre or block). Millions of dollars are paid for each offshore block. The gov gets 16.6% royalty on all the oil or gas produced.

The refineries closed because of the new environment regs. It was easier to close the refinery & eliminate the possibility of risk, than upgrade. The american companies are in the business for profit. If they have a problem their stock drops. Foreign countries are in the business for profit and benifits to their country. They are not too concerned about their stock price.

Companies are willing to build pipelines and compressor plants, but nobody want to build or own a refinery. With all the regs and various fuel requirement what investor wants these problems?

In the past, we had a buffer. OPEC functioned similar to the Federal Reserve. For many years since the 80s they kept prices stable by adjusting production. We were fairly parallel with OPEC in keeping stablility. But the buffer is gone, OPEC has limited control on price when FEAR and GREED become a factor in the commodity market.

For 20 years they predicted the "bubble". Entities like T. Boone Pickens and Haliburton's extensive research group said there would come a point between 2000 and 2010 when the added demand from 3rd world countries would out stripe our ability to supply.

Tax? Do want more oil and lower prices? Then make sure Exploration companies put their dollars back in the ground to find more reserves and increase production. It does not mean we should not conserve.

What is a fair tax 50 cents per gallon of gas? 16.5% of each bbl produced? Cost are always passed onto the consumer, or exploration goes where you can make the best investment.

For stability America has to own/hold energy reserves (oil or gas in the ground). This hate for the American oil industry is crazy.
 
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