Futura from AeroCopter Span

Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

For 60 to 70 grand I would buy a nice low time RV-4 or RV-6 fixed wing that will do short field with the best of them, and cruise at 170+ mph, and take the change and buy a sparrowhawk. How anyone could write a check for over 30 grand for a gyro is way beyond me.
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

Steven,<br><br>   I went to Oregon a few months ago and visited the Sportcopter factory and was impressed with the quality of the Sportcopter.  I haven't seen the Magni gyro in person, but from their video, they look very well built as well.  If I go Magni, it will either be the M-14 (their sporty model) or the M-20 Talon which is still in the testing phase.  Though, by the time I get around to getting one, who knows what will be available?  Probably a few more choices for me to look at.  Good luck with your SPortcopter, and keep us informed as to your progress with it (pictures, etc!)<br><br>Terry
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

For those of you that havent seen it , this is one of Owen Dull,s machines. Carbon fibre/kevlar Rotax 912 , or Sub 4 EA81. flys great, good price- why look at anything else?<br>          Cheers Echo
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

Steve,<br>            I will find Owen's e-mail for you- it was posted on rotorcraft forum. He will build a complete gyro or cab. Excellent quality & finish , I had mine made in fibreglass to see how it would go compared to carbon - slightly heavier but heaps cheaper.<br>   Echo
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

Echo.<br><br>I like the looks of this machine.  I take it that this Owen guy doesn't have a website. Does He have an address and what would be the cost for an info pack.<br><br>Even if He can't afford a web site, maybe you can get him invovled on this forum.  I am sure there may be others interested in finding out more about this aircraft.<br><br>Shawn
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

I too am very interested in communicating with Owen and learning more about his machine.<br><br>thanks,<br><br>Doug
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

<br>So I think it's probably just fine for one person and marginally adequate for two.<br>
<br><br>Steve and guys, <br><br>I think that it might be OK for lean and hungry Euro-zone humans, but for beef-eating dollar-zoners it might be a bit anemic. I did find that while the engine outfit that somebody posted claims 75 HP out of the BMW 1100, AeroCopter claims 110. That might be more in line with what you expected. <br><br>
Why do you say visibility would be poor?  To the rear maybe, but I think it's very helicopter-like and highly attractive.
<br><br>No lie that it's a good-looking unit. I have seen enough such beautiful aircraft that are too-good-to-be-true that I tend to be very skeptical of new developments that are strong on sizzle. This is unfair when a decent company comes along with a lot of sizzle atop a solid design, and occasionally I eat some crow. But I don't wind up like 5,000 BD-5 kit buyers watching for the postman to come and bring them their drivetrain parts (thirty years later now... news flash: he ain't coming). Or like 500 Mini-500 buyers who found out only too late that the cute-looking thing was a killer (I believe the body count stands at 11). <br><br>On visibility, what I did was mentally put myself in the pilot's seat. And I found I had to mentally lean forward to look to my right because the curve of the cabin is in the way. But, maybe my mental imaginings are just plain mental. <br><br>cheers<br><br>-=K=-
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

Seeing the pictures of the two different bird here and the Polish one in the general thread, raises a question.  Outside of the AAI Sparrowhawk (wich is still in progress ) Why does it seem that all the enclosed two seaters seem to be coming from outside the USA.  It kinda makes that "company within driving distance" a mute point. :-/<br><br>Shawn
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

Actually the website for the BMW engines states it develops up to 100 HP. This seems quite reasonable to me. BMW claims 95 HP for 1150 CC engine in RS trim and 98 HP for the 1100 CC engine in S trim. These are very nice engines and are claimed by BMW to be able to run all day at only a couple hundred revs below red line. They are light weight and can really take abuse. Plus they are fuel injected, catalysed and quiet. I do question the claim that they are only 35% cooled by air however. The BMW air/oil cooling scheme essentially provides a few high pressure oil outputs underneath the piston crowns and at the exhaust ports to supplement pur air cooling in those areas.

I owned an R1100 R for many years and rode it every single day. It never let me down.
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

[quote author=Peter Wendell link=board=20;threadid=133;start=30#msg1593 date=1070592025]

I do question the claim that they are only 35% cooled by air however. The BMW air/oil cooling scheme essentially provides a few high pressure oil outputs underneath the piston crowns and at the exhaust ports to supplement pur air cooling in those areas.

[/quote]

Heh. Interesting, Peter. The hi-pressure oil jets are nothing too new, most aero engines have the same (and they are also responsible for a lot of cooling there). Subaru engines also have ooil jets directed at the underside of the pistons -- at least the EJ22 does.

Fuel/air mixture also makes a contribution to cooling -- at least, until it's touched off! I'm sure there are many SAE papers with dull mathematics that would let us calculate the percentages... as long as it adds up to low wear, most of us don't care how the engine maker does it.

cheers

-=K=-
 
Re: Futura from AeroCopter Span

[quote author=Whirlydog link=board=20;threadid=133;start=30#msg1339 date=1070389096]

Outside of the AAI Sparrowhawk (wich is still in progress ) Why does it seem that all the enclosed two seaters seem to be coming from outside the USA.

Shawn
[/quote]

Well, there's the Barnett BRC 540, which is shipping (beyond which I know next to nothing about it). The RAF is only from Canada, it's not like it's in New Zealand to visit there. And they have (or had) dealers.

I think the basic deal is this: there are a relatively few people interested in gyroplanes. There are probably less than two million pilots in the world, and gyronauts are a subset of similar magnitude, I'd guess. On the upside, it means even the luminaries of the field are approachable. Maybe there are thirty thousand people seriously interested (i.e. building, flying, scheming, researching) in gyroplanes. In the world.

That small handful of folks exist in clusters here and there, usually around successful(?) gyro entrepreneurs, but those clusters are scattered all to hell and gone across the civilised lands of the planet. So interesting aircraft show up in Spain, Poland, Russia, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. None of them can really market well beyond his home continent -- very frustrating for people accustomed to having the best of world production in anything available from a local dealer or by telephone. I mean, how many of us drive a car that was made near home? Where was your computer made?

But, the distant manufacturers of gyroplanes can't afford to finance dealers around the world. Dealers, for their part, can't afford to stock aircraft. So if you are interested in, say, a Magni, you go to Greg and fly in his and decide you want it, and then have to wait for it to come from Italy. I'm sure Greg would like to have inventory on hand, but can't tie up that kind of money, and the same is true for any US rep of an overseas gyro, or overseas rep of a US one.

The small scale of the market means that even the most successful entrepreneur is usually scaled to fit. This means that he is one catastrophe away from dissolution (remember Farrington?). There isn't enough surplus in any one vendor for there even to be a decent market for worthwhile intellectual property at auction. There isn't enough surplus for decent R&D, and by that I mean real R&D with instrumented aircraft and proper flight test engineering. That's one reason that we still have debates about things like stability that should be settled, at least among the designers: the (scientific) literature is terribly thin, and many of the guys designing gyroplanes can't read it anyway.

The most interesting action I have seen, to deal with this intractable set of facts, is the set of actions taken by AAI (and by Jay and David Groen and company) to grow the market. Mind you, the CarterCopter is revolutionary technology that can not only change gyroplane flying, but has the potential to change the world. But it's the way that Groen/AAI plans to sell the gyroplane concept to people who are not currently in the in-group, that has the most potential for success. But there are no guarantees in life except death and taxes.

cheers

-=K=-
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

Kevin,
I think you are right on the money. If your a gyro manufacture, you better have a day job, and if your going to put something out there, you better have examined your target customer base and found out what they want. AAI seems to have really made an effort to do this. The only real thing that is missing in this modern time is financing. If a gyro manufacture such as Magni, for example, was able to market a gyro such as the M-20 Talon, a proven high performance design with stunning looks and provide financing, they couldn't make enough of them to keep up the demand. As it stands, this and many other aircraft like it are distant dreams for such a very few that a parent company could not possibly survive for long because of the lack of income.

Gyro pilots are a fringe group among an already elite hobby and I believe that if we are ever going to attract more raving fans, the face of Gyrocopters is going to have to change.
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

Matt, You said WE..... Does this mean you are sticking with gyros? I mean you said you were selling and getting into fixed wings. If that was the case then you should have said YOUS GUYS ;)

I am just checking to see if you got the gyro bug back ;D
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

The only way to fix this market is by networking.
If you look at you cel phone you will see at least 5 coutries involved in one complete unit.
Regional reps and dealers can acommodate small stock and make up for a quota (year) that will kepp the manufacts busy.
And go after the general population, a gyro in the air is the best marketing for our little buzzers.
Thanks
Heron
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

Ron, I think I am frustrated with gyros for the very reasons I explained, but I know from flying mine what the potential could be. If BJ Schramm can sell a turbine powered high performance helicopter for $31K then someone should be able to sell a totally kick butt, sleek, powerful, high performance gyro for a lot less!
I did solo the other day in a Cherokee and as soon as I am certified, I am going to get my commercial helicopter add-on.
The next run on Helicycles is Sept 04, so I am seriously considering paying the deposit and locking in a slot. That was my first dream a long time ago.
At that point, I will seriously go about the business of selling my gyro.
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

Matt I too would love to have my own helicopter. My only problem is money ;)

You see I would rather have two or three different - cheaper aircraft - for a given amount of money than just one expensive one. Take the Helicycle for example at 31 grand. We know 31 grand get's you the kit but it will take even more money to get it flying. It always does so up the total to 35 grand flying. For 35 grand you could have a one seat helicopter or in my case, A 4 seat classic recently restored 110 mph airplane.... A fun single place gyroplane...... and due to the fact that I built my own hangar and built it quite large, I have a roommate with a fixed wing ultralight who allows me to fly it anytime for allowing him to have a place to keep it. So I have the best of all worlds for being on such a budget. Had I not gone for a recently restored pacer, I could have quite a bit less money invested in a decent condition, but not restored pacer, and if so I would have some extra money to go look into buying a trike and a backpack powered parachute, two more cheap ways in to get in the sky that I find very fun.

Remember the man who dies with the most toys wins!

I like all forms of flight, I personally couldn't be satisfied with just one type of aircraft. I think gyros are a lot of fun, but they do have their problems. They aren't as good for cross country as fixed wings. They do burn more gas for the all up weight. They do make alot of noise and yes Financing and insurance is near impossible to get. But for the guy who can be satisfied with a simple in expensive gyro that doesn't require a loan to buy and these aren't real set backs.

I wouldn't let what other pilots say about gyroplanes influence my decision to fly a gyro. Most nearly all of the party poopers about gyroplanes you will meet know little to nothing about gyros. They are just bad mouthing gyros because they don't understand them and maybe know of someone who back in the 60's got killed in a Bensen they tried to teach themselves to fly. I personally have experienced plenty of flack myself, but in the end when they watch me safely buzz around under a set of spinning blades instead of a lazy fixed wing above my head, They are just upset that it isn't them up there having fun. I say F them if they give you a hard time. I sure wouldn't get out of a hobby I enjoy to buy some other type of aircraft just to have these assholes for friends. The best way to change things for you to the better is to fly with common since, and try to educate any and everyone willing to sit there and listen to you on how a gyro flys and why it IS safe, and to get someone in there with a two place to give everyone there a ride. A ride will change a lot of their bad attitudes.
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

I feel fortunate. I'm getting set to buy a single-place in the spring, and my credit union said they'll make me the same loan they make on motorhomes. (Currently about 8% APR.) All I need, said the rep, is to submit product information, price quote, and a picture. When I told her it was a kit, she said I can just submit a picture of another one that's been built as an example!

I'll never bank at an actual bank again, if I can help it...
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

What most people overlook for financing options is those little plastic things in their wallet.

I have used my Visa, Master Card, Discover, And American Express Optima Cards to buy just about everything I have bought short of the House and my Trucks.

In many cases you can get a much better interest rate with the credit cards than a standard loan.

It is a non secured loan so if there is a transfer of ownership, you do not have to wait for the bank to clear the tittle to you.

You can pay it off early or send in minimum payments and drag it out over 5 or 6 years instead of a fixed payment each month.

If you see something you want.... You just go buy it. your already approved.


There are lot's of avantages to using the credit card to buy stuff as you can see. Now if your cards are high interest then it may not be such a good option But Most cards today are under 10 percent on purchases and under 20 percent on cash advances.

Most of my cards offer promotion rates where I can transfer a balance to the card and get a fixed rate of 2 - 5 percent interest till the balance is paid off. This works great. And to avoid cash advance fees and higher rates, In nearly all cases if you call the credit card and ask them, you can use the balance transfer checks they send you as personal checks and get the same rate as a transfer or purchase.

So what I do is if I know the seller will take a check, I just write a balance transfer check out to him. If he wants cash I make the check out to me, and deposit it to my account and the next day - if I deposited before 2 pm, and didn't draw attention to my deposit.... because if you do your bank may put a hold on the deposit till the check clears which takes nearly a week - So the next day I go to the bank and the money is now in my account and I just withdraw cash or a cashiers check.

The only things you must be careful about it to make sure it is alright to make the transfer checks out to you or another individual, Some cards will only let the cards be used to a business or another bank. Also make sure to make your minimum payments each month or your special rate can go away and you will get hit with the highest rate the bank can charge.

If your crafty you can keep transfering the balance between your cards and never pay more than prime rate. Last year I bought a motorhome and used my Chase mastercard and got ZERO percent interest for the first year. After the year was up I transfered the balance to another card with something like 3 percent till paid off.
 
Re:Futura from AeroCopter Span

I was always taught that unless it's something that will make you money or you absolutely need, do not make payments. If you can't afford to buy your toys outright, then you can't afford them. No wonder you had to sell your Dominator. :)
 
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