Full power takeoff!

Vance

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That would be me Vance complaining about, my friends.
The good the bad and the ugly.

Well, I'll see you 2 mentors and raise you 3 of my instructors I just got off the phone with.
I asked, "Aren't you at full right rudder when you fly the 915's on takeoff."
The answer after a laughed, was "yes by all 3, and by two full right rudder left stick in all of them". No hesitation by all 3 and from one said in the MTO 915's it is always that way.

Then I told only one of them, Henry, that Vance is condemning flying 915's with full right rudder on the premises if the wind changes you may need it.
I laughed and said, "for goodness sake, any pilot instantly would just reduce power and back pressure on the stick lowering the nose until I have the rudder back. Geeeeeeees".
It is about as automatic as putting the nose back to the horizon when you change the power settings in Autogyros.

However, Henry hedged his answer once he discovered it was Vance condemning me, and the 3 of them.
And said well "with your low weight you sure don't need it most of the time".
So then I specifically asked Henry "Should I just use 5500 as I did for the check ride?" as it really does bother me being at full stop.
Well if it bothers you use 5500.

In a FW hitting full stop on landing means going around in crosswinds.


Sigh... no more showing fixed wingers over 1000-a-minute climb rate for me.
When I'm flying two I'll do as you say and fly 5500 but when alone, please leave me alone.
My fear is that some people may believe the Cavalon 915IS and the Airgiro 915 have a design defect (insufficient rudder authority) or that some flight instructors teach that using full rudder deflection on climb out to 70kts is good airmanship because readers may believe this is a debate.

Henry is a friend of mine and even though I have not flown with him I suspect he is a good flight instructor.

I did not contact Henry about this and I would not report what he said if I had.

What passes between a learner and their flight instructor is private.

John is a friend of mine and my intent was to help him understand what he was doing elevated the takeoff risk.

I work every day to make flying gyroplanes safer and I feel threads like this may set my efforts back.

I hope this threads will not discourage people from asking questions as that is an opportunity to present and share information.
 

All_In

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My goodness, before the 1st flight in a Cavalon with Henry he made me review the POH take-off procedures with him.
As I remember it said to abort the take-off if you are not at full power.
Henry, Peter, and James did nothing wrong teaching by the POH!!!!!!!!!!! There is NOTHING to turn any of them in for. They did not feel I was on the stop!!!!

For the 1st 2 or 3 take-offs, I followed the book.
On the climb out on the 3rd take-off, I told Henry that I'm at full right rudder just after I rotate, (1st take-off almost did 1/2 of an "s" turn to get back to the center line.)
I asked Henry that because of our low weight, I do not want to follow the book and want to learn the RPM I need to use by balancing on my mains for half the runway without her being able to lift off herself.
Then I'll slowly add power to discover what airspeed she flies off by herself. Then add more power to discover what RPM where with my weight the right rudder hits the stop.
I cannot fly a 915 Calavlon by the book and have any right rudder left. By the book, I do reach full power and I would have to abort all take-offs.
So I do not use full power, by the book, unless I bring Doug who weighs over 300 lbs. with me.
I had to create my own POH and instead of using 5800, I use 4900 for the take-off roll and rotation. I slowly increase RPMs to 5500 after the rotation and I have a little right rudder left!! At 100 feet I apply 100% power and I'm at the full stop until I reach pattern altitude.

So, Vance and Jim attack away and condemn my terrible piloting.
Most would never post again portraying them as idiots and the worst and most dangerous pilot on the forum.
But I would happily allow you and Jim and a few others to portray me as an idiot if I can learn anything that I'm doing wrong.

So please do explain what I'm doing wrong. So far I've learned nothing from you that will help. That sucks!!!!
 
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All_In

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Mike and others have really helped the most = As Mike explained it is rigging!!!.
I'm going to play with the rigging on the AG915.
I'd ask Mike how to do that on the forum but with me asking Vance and Jim will just turn that into a fight too??
90% fight 1% real answers, not worth any of our time except for the drama????
I'll call Micheal Burton, Raul, and others who actually help me, to ask my rigging questions.
It is a shame the forum cannot learn the answers.
 
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Rotormouse

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John, please don’t be so defensive. Vance and Jim have your best interests at heart – as do most here for all gyronauts, regardless of hours. We don’t want you or anyone else to become another statistic to picked over and pulled apart.

We all know it can happen but we never believe that it will. For us it happened again yesterday. My club and two innocent families are in a world of pain right now.

PLEASE for god’s sake be careful – all of you.
 

Mayfield

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John, please don’t be so defensive. Vance and Jim have your best interests at heart – as do most here for all gyronauts, regardless of hours. We don’t want you or anyone else to become another statistic to picked over and pulled apart.

We all know it can happen but we never believe that it will. For us it happened again yesterday. My club and two innocent families are in a world of pain right now.

PLEASE for god’s sake be careful – all of you.
Sorry for your loss Shirley. I'm not yet aware of what you are talking about. I hope you can share at the appropriate time.

Jim
 

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That didn't sound good Shirley, sorry to hear that news.

So, Vance and Jim attack away and condemn my terrible piloting.
Most would never post again portraying them as idiots and the worst and most dangerous pilot on the forum.
But I would happily allow you and Jim and a few others to portray me as an idiot if I can learn anything that I'm doing wrong.

So please do explain what I'm doing wrong. So far I've learned nothing from you that will help. That sucks!!!!
John, this is not what is happening. As far as I can see they are not attacking, and you are not being portrayed as the most dangerous pilot on the forum, and, you probably have been receiving some good information from various posts on this thread.

Unfortunately your responses are appearing a little dramatic, and seeming perhaps overly sensitive.

The first post never mentioned any names, it simply was an observation, that many have shared, which was on having to use full deflection of a control surface to effect a normal TO did not seem to be sensible.

You were the one who put yourself squarely in the picture with this post, and, accusation.
That would be me Vance complaining about, my friends.
The good the bad and the ugly....

By then bringing other instructors into the situation you simply seemed to be stirring the pot.

Your final post, quoted first, I feel is unjustified and unkind. I have known you and liked you for a long time John, but right now I feel you are blowing the situation out of proportion which is sad. Discord where it is unnecessary helps neither the forum, nor your good self.
 

jeffh

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I do not think you should even be putting in full deflection on rudder at 70 knots. That just does not seem right but I have not flown 915 powered Cavalon. Generally in airplanes there will be a maneuvering speed beyond which big deflection and definitely full deflections are prohibited. In gyroplanes although we do not have technically a "maneuvering speed" as such but certainly beyond 55 - 60 knots putting full deflection to the stop is not advisable.
Now if John is saying that he needs full deflection just to fly it co-ordinated in a 70 knot climb out on Cavalon 915, I am baffled.
Abid, I have to assume that it's the rate of acceleration to 70kts, not the 70 kts itself that's the problem here. Reaching 70kts over a longer period and longer ground roll may be safe, but trying to quickly take the throttle to full power to achieve 70kts too rapidly is where I would imagine one could reach the rudder stops with full power in an overpowered gyro. Early on in my gyro flying, friends pointed out that I pushed the throttle forward too rapidly as I accelerated, some of this was a holdover from my training and strict interpretation of the Autogyro POH, which I had to unlearn. In a 912 gyro it never got me in trouble, I imagine it could get me in trouble in a 915 powered one.
 
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Abid

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Here is a full lesson from Henry Boger to an existing pilot on a Cavalon 915iS. Check at 12:30 mark, a little right pedal and a little left stick for takeoff and climb. If you do not catch the rotation (nose up) of the gyroplane in time then in a nose high attitude takeoff will require more right pedal. This all seems normal to me.


Henry shows the effect of power application or taking it off here

 
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Abid

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Abid, I have to assume that it's the rate of acceleration to 70kts, not the 70 kts itself that's the problem here. Reaching 70kts over a longer period and longer ground roll may be safe, but trying to quickly take the throttle to full power to achieve 70kts too rapidly is where I would imagine one could reach the rudder stops with full power in an overpowered gyro. Early on in my gyro flying, friends pointed out that I pushed the throttle forward too rapidly as I accelerated, some of this was a holdover from my training and strict interpretation of the Autogyro POH, which I had to unlearn. In a 912 gyro it never got me in trouble, I imagine it could get me in trouble in a 915 powered one.

Jeff. There is no problem with 915 engine. One simply has to learn to use it. I at 147 pounds in AR-1 915iS, pre-rotate to 180+ RRPM, apply cruise power, check rotor RPM is increasing, and as nose floats, I apply full power in about 2 to 3 seconds. If I do it too slowly, I am just gobbling up ground roll for nothing. But to new pilots, I teach them to slowly apply power at first because they are all ham fisted and do not know how to control brake nor throttle with their left hand yet. Once they get the finesse in their left hand, coming on power too slowly just elongates the takeoff roll, nothing else. I clear my 50 foot obstacle and lower the power if I want to 5500 or so. Expect slight left stick and a bit of right rudder on climbout. If you are at close to minimum weight and on a long runway, you can surely use 80% power to takeoff on a 915iS. The key is that you understand the performance difference. That will not obviously give you listed performance in the POH. But it keeps you more comfortable and there is a long runway, why not. The throttle is under your control. At the end of the day PIC is PIC. They need to fly the machine under their control not by rote

On takeoff roll, you have to control as the nose comes up and catch the nose coming up to balance at proper attitude. If your nose is allowed to come up too much too quickly, obviously you will at that time need to apply more right rudder as you bring it back down and you should know why as a pilot that happens. That is completely understandable. It should chill out after the rotation is done and relative wind has caught up with direction of travel. Meaning that part is going to be temporary so do not over control there. The problem is a lot of Cessna drivers never learn this. Tailwheel pilots are used to it and it is a run of the mill thing for them.

 
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jeffh

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Jeff. There is no problem with 915 engine. One simply has to learn to use it. I at 147 pounds in AR-1 915iS, pre-rotate to 180+ RRPM, apply cruise power, check rotor RPM is increasing, and as nose floats, I apply full power in about 2 to 3 seconds. If I do it too slowly, I am just gobbling up ground roll for nothing. But to new pilots, I teach them to slowly apply power at first because they are all ham fisted and do not know how to control brake nor throttle with their left hand yet. Once they get the finesse in their left hand, coming on power too slowly just elongates the takeoff roll, nothing else. I clear my 50 foot obstacle and lower the power if I want to 5500 or so. Expect slight left stick and a bit of right rudder on climbout. If you are at close to minimum weight and on a long runway, you can surely use 80% power to takeoff on a 915iS. The key is that you understand the performance difference. That will not obviously give you listed performance in the POH. But it keeps you more comfortable and there is a long runway, why not. The throttle is under your control. At the end of the day PIC is PIC. They need to fly the machine under their control not by rote

On takeoff roll, you have to control as the nose comes up and catch the nose coming up to balance at proper attitude. If your nose is allowed to come up too much too quickly, obviously you will at that time need to apply more right rudder as you bring it back down and you should know why as a pilot that happens. That is completely understandable. It should chill out after the rotation is done and relative wind has caught up with direction of travel. Meaning that part is going to be temporary so do not over control there. The problem is a lot of Cessna drivers never learn this. Tailwheel pilots are used to it and it is a run of the mill thing for them.

Abid, I never said there was a problem with the 915, essentially I agree with you. I think in the context of this thread though it appears that full power applied too rapidly with a 915 can test the limits of the control surfaces in a Cavalon. I have never flown a Cavalon so of course I'm speculating, but agree with Vance, handling a Cavalon 915 in this manner is likely decreasing one's margins of safety.
 
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Vance

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So I do not use full power, by the book, unless I bring Doug who weighs over 300 lbs. with me.
Weight and Balance figures for a 915 powered Cavalon from the POH

Maximum weight in RH seat (incl. compartment behind seat): ................ 110 kg (242 LBS)

Maximum weight in LH seat (incl. compartment behind seat): ................ 110 kg (242 LBS)

Maximum total weight in cockpit (both seats + compartments):............... 200 kg (440 LBS)

Minimum total weight in both seats: .......................................................... 65 kg (143 LBS)

It appears to me that over 300 pounds would exceed the maximum weight in either seat.
 

Abid

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Abid, I have to assume that it's the rate of acceleration to 70kts, not the 70 kts itself that's the problem here. Reaching 70kts over a longer period and longer ground roll may be safe, but trying to quickly take the throttle to full power to achieve 70kts too rapidly is where I would imagine one could reach the rudder stops with full power in an overpowered gyro. Early on in my gyro flying, friends pointed out that I pushed the throttle forward too rapidly as I accelerated, some of this was a holdover from my training and strict interpretation of the Autogyro POH, which I had to unlearn. In a 912 gyro it never got me in trouble, I imagine it could get me in trouble in a 915 powered one.

I think what I understand from your writing here is that you are saying do not apply abrupt power input (full power) which we sometimes would call do not gun the throttle. Yes, that is never advised. The reason one would reach the limits of rudder stops in this though is simply that the nose comes up too abruptly and the pilot is not good enough or quick enough to catch it and that creates the excessive rudder input.

My understanding is though that that input should be temporary and should reduce down once in a steady speed climb, but it seems to me that what was being described is that the full right rudder was needed throughout the climb with 145 pound pilot in a Cavalon 915. Maybe I understood that wrong
 

Mayfield

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My understanding is though that that input should be temporary and should reduce down once in a steady speed climb, but it seems to me that what was being described is that the full right rudder was needed throughout the climb with 145 pound pilot in a Cavalon 915. Maybe I understood that wrong
Just speculating here:

1. John is somewhat below average in height. Is he at full leg extension and only thinks he is at full rudder deflection?
2. Is he trying to hold the nose aligned with the runway on climb out?
3. He has talked about full right rudder and lots of left stick force. Is he trying to execute a climbing slip?
4. Relative to items 2 & 3 above; is he failing to fly in coordinated flight once clear of the surface?

His reports are contrary to anything I can understand. I hope it is sorted out.

Jim
 
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All_In

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John, please don’t be so defensive. Vance and Jim have your best interests at heart – as do most here for all gyronauts, regardless of hours. We don’t want you or anyone else to become another statistic to picked over and pulled apart.

We all know it can happen but we never believe that it will. For us it happened again yesterday. My club and two innocent families are in a world of pain right now.

PLEASE for god’s sake be careful – all of you.
I'm so sorry to learn that Shirly. Please give the family my condolences, this sucks.

This will be the last drama pointing out they are killing the forum that had taught me so much. I do not care if I look a fool if I learn the correct answer! Not met many others who put ego behind learning. I look at complaints as positive and the only way I know there is a problem to correct it.
For my last 3 threads, I posted in I get phone calls asking:
Why do you even post on that forum?
They then explain they do not post as much because they "FEEL" attacked.
This just happen again on this thread. Well, 3 strikes, and I will try and get them to stop killing the forum by pointing out how they must FEEL.

The drama would start again if I explain the exact posts of Vance and Jim in the last 3 threads with me.
They both in not so many words told me "not to post until I'm an expert". I don't care but the ones who call me DO.
They have quit or almost quit posting.

This will be the last of my defending myself, for the forum's sake.
Only facts because I no longer learn anything.
 

All_In

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That didn't sound good Shirley, sorry to hear that news.


John, this is not what is happening. As far as I can see they are not attacking, and you are not being portrayed as the most dangerous pilot on the forum, and, you probably have been receiving some good information from various posts on this thread.

Unfortunately your responses are appearing a little dramatic, and seeming perhaps overly sensitive.

The first post never mentioned any names, it simply was an observation, that many have shared, which was on having to use full deflection of a control surface to effect a normal TO did not seem to be sensible.

You were the one who put yourself squarely in the picture with this post, and, accusation.


By then bringing other instructors into the situation you simply seemed to be stirring the pot.

Your final post, quoted first, I feel is unjustified and unkind. I have known you and liked you for a long time John, but right now I feel you are blowing the situation out of proportion which is sad. Discord where it is unnecessary helps neither the forum, nor your good self.
As you wish. Thank you my friend.
 

All_In

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Weight and Balance figures for a 915 powered Cavalon from the POH

Maximum weight in RH seat (incl. compartment behind seat): ................ 110 kg (242 LBS)

Maximum weight in LH seat (incl. compartment behind seat): ................ 110 kg (242 LBS)

Maximum total weight in cockpit (both seats + compartments):............... 200 kg (440 LBS)

Minimum total weight in both seats: .......................................................... 65 kg (143 LBS)

It appears to me that over 300 pounds would exceed the maximum weight in either seat.
Reality = You are confused and reporting the incorrect aircraft.
1) My first 10 hours of training was in a Cavalon with 3 instructors. The heaviest weighed less than 190.
2) I never flew the Cavalon by myself or with a non-instructor passenger.
3) The Cavalon was much more squirrely than the AG915 was for ME.
4) The AG915 has much higher weight limits.
5) Only flown friends in the AG915.
6) The AG915 POH does not say to abort the take-off if not at full power. The Cavalon POH instructs pilots to abort, but I was with an instructor and reduced my PRMs from max and kept on training not following that part of the POH.
7) AG915 POH Weight data
  • Weight 704 lbs
  • Payload 616 lbs
  • Maximum allowed take-off weight 1322 lbs
8) It appears to me that your assumptions that I would not check weight and balance were wrong, as was I exceeded the maximum weight in either seat. In either aircraft.
 
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loftus

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I climb out at 80 MPH not anywhere near 50 ever!!!!
Why on earth would you wish to climb out at 80mph in a Cavalon, ever? An old teacher of mine would always say, 'just because you can, does not mean you should' This would appear to be the crux of this whole discussion.
 

Philbennett

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Just reading through some of this as it came up in the feed as an active thread.

We seem to chase a lot of similar themes around, be it trashing rotors on take off or wheel balancing or PIO. One thing that we don't seem to distill all that well is the distinction between trying to do the right thing and the aircraft making that difficult, doing the wrong thing and not knowing right from wrong.

Cavalon 915 doesn't need full rudder during the take off and the 915 motor has super qualities as far as it has very linear power delivery. So the full rudder / Cavalon story seems to me someone is flying out of balance or something with the build because 915's from the factory seemed fine to me.

Yes 80mph is fast for climbing out - it is faster than Vy or Vx but actually it is a far more comfortable climb angle, giving better viz, although here is now the contradiction.

For those that don't or won't climb out with full power set why are they now selective on which parts of the POH they wish to follow?
 

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Just reading through some of this as it came up in the feed as an active thread.

We seem to chase a lot of similar themes around, be it trashing rotors on take off or wheel balancing or PIO. One thing that we don't seem to distill all that well is the distinction between trying to do the right thing and the aircraft making that difficult, doing the wrong thing and not knowing right from wrong.

Cavalon 915 doesn't need full rudder during the take off and the 915 motor has super qualities as far as it has very linear power delivery. So the full rudder / Cavalon story seems to me someone is flying out of balance or something with the build because 915's from the factory seemed fine to me.

Yes 80mph is fast for climbing out - it is faster than Vy or Vx but actually it is a far more comfortable climb angle, giving better viz, although here is now the contradiction.

For those that don't or won't climb out with full power set why are they now selective on which parts of the POH they wish to follow?
I'm just at a loss why anyone would want to climb out at any speed or power setting that requires maximum control input, unless there was a very good reason like a short field takeoff.
 

Philbennett

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Yes i dont necessarily disagree with the sentiment yet that would flag a design / build issue. Unless something has changed in last 12 months a 915 Cavalon climbing out at 80mph and 100% throttle doesnt (or didn't in the UK with one built by the factory) require the rudder to be fully deflected.
 
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