Flying M24 with both doors off?

[Inquiring Mind]

Any safety related reason not to fly M-24 with both doors off?
Magni responded to my question suggesting to take off only one door, passenger side, without explanation why.

 

[Illini85]

Not an owner yet, but I think the issue with both doors off is too much wind coming into the cabin from around the pillars. I wish they would instead have a "summer" door that was cut out or vented more. To cut out say the lower 30% of the door might require a frame. But I bet somebody could 3d print something suitable relatively easily

 

[Inquiring Mind]

a "summer" door that was cut out ... might require a frame.

M24 door are framed, I like the idea of having second set of doors with cut-outs of the top portion as a summer doors.

 

[WaspAir]

I don't know about the M24 in particular, but for my Bell 47, I really limit my speed with both doors off. Above about 65 knots, there's an annoying buffetting that you don't get with only one door removed or with both on. It's not a safety issue in itself if everything in the cockpit it secured but loose items could get sucked out and into the tail rotor (perhaps the prop in your case). The R22 seemed to suffer much less from speed with doors off, so it wasn't an issue. My old Sikorsky S52 had sliding cabin side doors that could be opened as much as desired.

The A&S18A has a speed limit with its one door removed.

Removing the passenger door can be helpful for photography.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

It's not a safety issue in itself if everything in the cockpit it secured but loose items could get sucked out and into the tail rotor (perhaps the prop in your case).

I see now, thanks. But why passenger door only?

 

[WaspAir]

Can't offer much insight on that!

 

[PJB]

I see now, thanks. But why passenger door only?

Possibly nothing more than security - I have no insight but I suspect (and if I were a corporate giving advice it would be on my mind) they tell you remove a door... You then remove the P1 door and fall out or something distracts and you have issues where does the buck stop...

Doors and M24 have an unhappy story at the introduction of the model in the UK. https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Magni_gyroplane_M24C_Orion__G-CGTI_10-11.pdf

 

[Inquiring Mind]

You then remove the P1 door and fall out or something distracts and you have issues where does the buck stop...

Thanks, Phil. That was my guess too. So, it is not like some aerodynamic issue arise because of pilot door is off, but just for pilot protection, got it.

 

[PJB]

Yes I have an M24 at my airfield that I fly but in the Uk we can’t remove the doors at all. I’ve flown a Cavalon without both doors and it’s very nice in the summer but with +70mph it gets very blowy in the cabin.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Yes I have an M24 at my airfield that I fly but in the Uk we can’t remove the doors at all. I’ve flown a Cavalon without both doors and it’s very nice in the summer but with +70mph it gets very blowy in the cabin.

Yeah, both doors open would make the cabin windy, I was thinking of flying with just one door off - pilot's door and leave the passenger door on and closed.

Last year I flew some hours on M-24 with passenger door off and it was not uncomfortable at all.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

For the entire summer I flew the M-24 with left (pilot's) door off, and liked it.

 

[anthom]

Interesting question.

I found this post in an old thread from 2011 regarding an accident when one door flew off in flight.

VNE without doors is 120 Km/h or 74 mph

I assume that these Gyro’s cruise at 85 – 90 Mph , 136 – 144 km/h

This means that if a door blow off in flight you will exceed VNE.

My question:
Does the M 24 become uncontrollable when exceeding VNE without doors ?
Is the effect bigger with only one door ?

Reason why I am asking.
3 Accidents in M 24 were doors were lost in flight. All 3 crashed
The UK pilot was a helicopter pilot , why could he not control the gyro without a door ?
The South African pilot was also very capable?

One of our club members bought an M24 last week. He has not flown in some time. I flew with him for an hour yesterday. We had the doors off and flew at max 70 mph in the pattern throughout. Didn't feel any adverse effects. It also handled the cross winds well.

I would like to know if there is anything contrary to flying the M24 with both doors off. Thanks.

 

[All_In]

Interesting question.

I found this post in an old thread from 2011 regarding an accident when one door flew off in flight.



One of our club members bought an M24 last week. He has not flown in some time. I flew with him for an hour yesterday. We had the doors off and flew at max 70 mph in the pattern throughout. Didn't feel any adverse effects. It also handled the cross winds well.

I would like to know if there is anything contrary to flying the M24 with both doors off. Thanks.

PRA would like to know too.
Thanks for asking.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

We had the doors off and flew at max 70 mph in the pattern throughout. Didn't feel any adverse effects. It also handled the cross winds well.

Great! Thank you, I will try both doors off flying soon.

 

[UCFKnight1039]

Great! Thank you, I will try both doors off flying soon.

How did you handle the limit switches in the door sockets when you removed the doors?
Also, how did it fly with both doors off?

Thanks
Gary

 

[Inquiring Mind]

How did you handle the limit switches in the door sockets when you removed the doors?
Also, how did it fly with both doors off?

Thanks
Gary

Gary, I have not flown with both doors off yet, only with left or right door off .
I made a wooden plug about 1/4" diameter, which did turn off the "Door Open" light. I don't have original Magni Rotor RPM indicator, which goes off if door is open, so I did not even need that plug, if I did not mind red light "Door Open" be on during the flight.

 

[UCFKnight1039]

Gary, I have not flown with both doors off yet, only with left or right door off .
I made a wooden plug about 1/4" diameter, which did turn off the "Door Open" light. I don't have original Magni Rotor RPM indicator, which goes off if door is open, so I did not even need that plug, if I did not mind red light "Door Open" be on during the flight.

Thank you very much for the reply. If you ever do go both doors off, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[DavePA11]

Any noticeable difference with pilot side door off vs passenger door?

 

[rlaird]

I regularly fly in the summer with both doors off my Cavalon. High cruise speed is reduced somewhat (per the manual, and in actual flight) and it can be quite breezy, but you get used to it. I did a round-trip Houston to Dallas in it with doors off at 2500 ft... no issues. I had heard that, with the M24, it was an aerodynamic thing -- just allowing one door off -- but that info was from an M24 owner that had been told that, so, not authoritative. A friend in Sweden with a Cavalon says they will not fly with the doors off as it causes too much buffeting, but it's odd because we have virtually that same gyro. (He can also fly hands-off, indefinitely, in calm winds whereas I can't do hands-off for more than 15-20 seconds. So, there are obviously at least two differences between his and mine.)

 

[Inquiring Mind]

Any noticeable difference with pilot side door off vs passenger door?

In hot day - yes, more airflow near open door, and more fun to look down without the door.